Mesaĝoj: 28
Lingvo: English
biguglydave (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 10:52:55
ceigered:Its like saying "rigardu" without commanding that the other party must actually use their eyes, and draws something to someone's attention.I was busy composing my last response and question off-line after you had already answered it. A synchronous universe rules!
Erinja: I didn't understand "BOT" when I took Russian, but it makes sense now, particularly all of the emphatic/exclamatory uses (e.g. BOT Y TAK) that didn't have anything to do with "this is my home".
Evildela (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 10:56:38
So for example:
"Jen ŝi foriras" - "Behold, she is leaving"
Its basically just a way to call attention to a particular subject. I think behold is the best way to translate it within English.
Example: "Jen mia libro" - "Behold my book" - "This is my book"
biguglydave (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 11:33:50
Evildela:I always within my head... well until I started getting more fluent in Esperanto represented Jen as Behold.OK ... "behold" as a learning tool is good. I understand.
However, I don't travel internationally through the English-speaking world; e.g. Oz, Albion, etc. So I'm just curious, would anyone there actually speak the word "Behold!" in public, or is this expression an archaic leftover from King James' translator-monks?
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 13:23:24
biguglydave:I think you might hear it in oratory. I'd say it's just slightly less archaic, at least in US English, than "Lo!", which is another translation of "jen".Evildela:I always within my head... well until I started getting more fluent in Esperanto represented Jen as Behold.OK ... "behold" as a learning tool is good. I understand.
However, I don't travel internationally through the English-speaking world; e.g. Oz, Albion, etc. So I'm just curious, would anyone there actually speak the word "Behold!" in public, or is this expression an archaic leftover from King James' translator-monks?
But just because "behold" and "lo" have fallen out of use in American English, it doesn't follow that they're not useful. On visits to the UK, I've heard "Hark" in actual speech, as in "Hark that!"--also very useful, and unfortunately gone from American.
(Fortunately, we've retained "gotten", which the brits have forgotten...)
Getting back to "jen"...
1. Don't use it with ESTAS, because the ESTAS meaning is part of the meaning of JEN.
2. JEN is not the same as ESTAS in function. JEN HUNDO is, "Behold the dog" or "See the dog here" or however you want to translate this general attention-directing meaning. ESTAS HUNDO means "there is a dog". It's just an existence claim.
3. I don't know if there's a part of speech term for JEN. There probably is, since there seems to be one for just about everything that has an antecedent in classical Latin or Greek.
4. JEN is your friend. It's a very useful little word, and once you get used to it, you'll wish we had it in English.
darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 13:31:36
T0dd:I'm quoting the Fundamenta Ekzercaro, §6:
1. Don't use it with ESTAS, because the ESTAS meaning is part of the meaning of JEN.
Jen estas pomo. ― Jen estas la pomo, kiun mi trovis.§10:
Jen estas la kajero de la juna fraŭlino.
T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 13:41:14
darkweasel:I stand corrected, although I still find that ESTAS is usually not used with JEN, and its presence seems pleonastic to me. But if it's in the Ekzercaro, that settles the matter.T0dd:I'm quoting the Fundamenta Ekzercaro, §6:
1. Don't use it with ESTAS, because the ESTAS meaning is part of the meaning of JEN.Jen estas pomo. ― Jen estas la pomo, kiun mi trovis.§10:Jen estas la kajero de la juna fraŭlino.
sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 14:06:40
Mi havas la jenajn demandojn.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 14:28:21
biguglydave:Even now, I'm not sure than I could translate the phrase "jen ŝi foriras" into English? Perhaps, "Look, she's leaving", where the word "look" represents the English equivalent of "jen"; i.e. "look" as an attention word rather than as a physical act of visualization/seeing/looking.You're right. See, you can do it! Jen, vi ja kapablas!
Any comments on this?
erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-februaro-04 15:17:41
"Jen domo" and "jen estas domo" seem to have more or less the same meaning to my ear.
jefusan (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-11 15:27:52
= "Behold the man" (English, King James translation)
= "Jen la homo" aŭ "Jen la viro" (Esperanto, translation by me)
"He-e-e-e-ere's Johnny!" (The Tonight Show, The Shining)
= "Je-e-e-e-en Johano!"