Mesaĝoj: 28
Lingvo: English
htrae22 (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-11 22:14:52
Scratch (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-12 14:03:45
Miland: I believe the French ici may be equivalent.No, I don't believe ici in French would be equivalent. Voilà would be it, as it is nearly literally, "See there!" Voici is also existent, but would be only used for objects or items more immediately here than the English sense of here.
But jen very much appears to work like the French voilà. In French, I wouldn't say "Voilá est le chien" but simply "Voilà le chien!"
So I think possible English equivalents of jen are:
behold
See there/here
look
there/here is the dog!
You'd be putting a little emphasis into a there/here is statement.
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-12 14:48:55
Scratch:I'll leave this to experts in French. But many years ago there was an educational TV series titled Ici la France. It's also apparently the title of a course at Cardiff University. Also I wonder how the title of this video would be translated.Miland: I believe the French ici may be equivalent.No, I don't believe ici in French would be equivalent.
jan aleksan (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-12 15:00:20
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-12 15:05:36
jan aleksan:I confirm that Jen=Voici/voilàSo, how do you translate "ici" in a title like "Ici la France"? Or into Esperanto?
Scratch (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-12 16:53:52
Miland:That's interesting, and something I haven't seen before in the French I've studied and learned. Although from what I can understand, the links don't have that sense of ici being used with a "See there/here" sense, the voi part is missing because there is a lack of command and urgency. From what I've been able to observe in the use of jen, it has the sense of command to it.Scratch:I'll leave this to experts in French. But many years ago there was an educational TV series titled Ici la France. It's also apparently the title of a course at Cardiff University. Also I wonder how the title of this video would be translated.Miland: I believe the French ici may be equivalent.No, I don't believe ici in French would be equivalent.
To help illustrate what's the more common usage, a Google search for "voilà le chien" and one for "ici le chien" shows more results for "ici le chien" but that's only because Google ignores punctuation. If you look at the results of the two searches, you'll see "voilà le chien" without a period in between voilà and le. The results of "ici le chien" almost always have period or comma between ice and le.
From what I've seen of the use of jen in Esperanto, it almost always resembles the form we see in "voilà le chien."
So after thinking through this while writing that, I'm more sure that ici la France is rather without command. It might be better punctuated as "Ici, la France." Perhaps Cardiff should be more aggressive with the course title name, "Voici/Voilà la France!" See it, learn it!
Jen Francio!
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-12 17:24:33
Scratch:From what I've been able to observe in the use of jen, it has the sense of command to it.I wouldn't deny that as the main use, and it is true that the Fundamento translates Jen by "voila, voici" or "Behold, lo" or "da".
The Ladybird book This is London, however, became Jen Londono in Esperanto. This was my reason for thinking that the French word ici could be used in a similar way.
But I agree that it wouldn't make the words "jen" and "ici" equivalent, except in that type of setting (if then). So I've edited my earlier message. I would like to know how people would translate "Ici la France" (when it is used without a comma) as a title of a film or course into Esperanto, though.
Rohan (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-13 15:00:16
Miland:So, how do you translate "ici" in a title like "Ici la France"? Or into Esperanto?'Ici' is also used when using the telephone. 'Ici Rohan' would, in that situation, mean 'This is Rohan speaking/calling' or 'Rohan here'.
I think it's this sense that the 'ici' in 'Ici La France' is supposed to convey. Something like 'This is France calling.'.