Al la enhavo
Respondi

The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

de sudanglo, 2011-marto-02

Mesaĝoj: 61

Lingvo: English

T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 02:50:17

ceigered:What's poka and aperti?
They're a couple of neologisms that have been kicking around for a long time.

POKA = MALMULTA
APERTI = MALFERMI

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 12:18:25

'Aperturo' is both Zamenhofa and Offical.

'Aperta' is probably a useful addition since there are occasions when malfermi with its agentive transitive feel doesn't suit.

Ferma and malferma carry the idea of closing and opening. La solenaj malfermaj/fermaj ceremonioj of a congress.

Aperti doesn't equal malfermi.

PIV defines 'aperta' as ne kovrita, ne fermita, libere alirebla (so with metaphorical extension). But simply when one wants to describe something as being in an open state rather than being opened (by somebody), I think 'aperta' shows it usefulness.

T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 13:19:49

sudanglo:
Aperti doesn't equal malfermi.
I stand corrected. In PIV1 it did, but later editions seem to have ruled otherwise.

Edit: I just noticed that the Lernu! Vortaro also translates APERTI as "to open". Perhaps that needs to be changed.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 13:58:39

Aperta in Wells is "open". PIV 2005 defines aperti as esti en aperta stato.

While PIV 2005 says that the idea of aperta (the definition of which sudanglo quoted earlier) is not to be confused with that of malfermita, I am not sure that we need this neologismo, since in my view it covers both malfermita and nekovrita, both of which we already have.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 17:37:46

I had a look through the databases and there were certainly transitive uses of 'aperti' - which if 'aperta' is considered the appropiate base form for the dictionary entry should be 'apertigi'.

In a sentence like 'Ŝi apertis unu el la pordoj kaj invitis lin enen', there appears to no reason not to say malfermi.

But in 'Antaŭ geedziĝo apertu viaj okulojn' you could argue that we mean something more than malfermi.

The most convinciing cases for 'apert' rather than 'malferm' were sentences like 'ambaŭ fenestroj apertis sur skvaron, kie ....' or 'Subite tra malpli densa arbaro aperis aperta spaco, kaj ili baldaŭ atingis lagbordon' or 'sidi sub aperta blua ĉielo'

Also there were instances of aperta in the figurative sence like 'La poezio de Lorca, aperta al ĉiuj postuloj de la modernismaj fluoj'

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 17:57:30

Skvaro, the writer evidently like neologisms.

I'd say placo instead.

I wouldn't personally use "aperta" to mean "malfermita" but in a different meaning than "malfermita", I don't have a problem with its use.

However, it seems like use of it is uneven. Sometimes it seems to be used as a synonym for malfermita, sometimes as another meaning altogether.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 18:28:00

I think that that's an appropriate test for all the neologism proposals. Does the new word carry some meaning which it is difficult to squeeze into the old form.

Cetainly the use of aperta/aperti doesn't seem to have quite settled down at the moment. I think I would talk about the aperturo of a postbox, though.

As regards Skvaro the dictionary entry suggests a slightly different meaning to placo. Placo leans towards an open space whereas skvaro is a more formal arrangement. So I think that my bay window looks out on a skvaro rather than a placo - very pretty formal garden surrounded by a hedge.

In Venice though I suppose it's a placo.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 18:43:02

sudanglo:
The most convinciing cases for 'apert' rather than 'malferm'..'ambaŭ fenestroj apertis sur skvaron..' or 'Subite tra .. arbaro aperis aperta spaco..' or 'sidi sub aperta blua ĉielo' 'La poezio .. aperta al ĉiuj postuloj ..'
I can think of alternative ways of putting those, respektively:
ambaŭ fenestroj rigardis al placĝardeno
(or malfermis sur, if they really did open outwards on to the space; note that Wells marks skvaro with malgajo.gif, meaning "deprecated", evitinda)
Subite tra .. arbaro aperis senarba spaco.. (or senkreskaĵa spaco if there wasn't a plant in sight)
sidi sub sen-nuba blua ĉielo
La poezio influebla de ĉiuj postuloj.. (or influita if the influence made its mark).

Epikuro57 (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 18:44:53

sudanglo:'Aperturo' is both Zamenhofa and Offical.

'Aperta' is probably a useful addition since there are occasions when malfermi with its agentive transitive feel doesn't suit.
It seems to me there's only one approach conistent with the rules of Esperanto grammar. I can't seem to find a definition of the -uro suffix anywhere, however we also have aperteco meaning openness which seems to be equally official. According to Don Harlow's article on word-building, the suffix -ec means "shows a quality or characteristic defined by the root." He gives the example of riĉa meaning rich and riĉeco meaning richness. The root of riĉa and riĉeco being riĉ, the root of aperteco is clearly apert.

Adjectives are formed by adding -a to the root, thus since riĉa means rich aperta means open in just the same way. Singular nouns are formed by adding -o to the root and infinitive verbs are formed by adding -i to the root and this is valid for all roots, not just some. Thus gajno means a win and gajni means to win, amo means love and ami means to love, ŝato means like and ŝati means to like, etc. Applying these rules to apert gives us aperto meaning open and aperti meaning to open in exactly the same way. Conjugating aperti according to the standard conjugation rules gives us apertis, apertas, apertos, aperu, etc.

I suggest this is totally consistent with Esperanto's grammar rules.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2011-marto-04 18:48:14

Epikuro57:..we also have aperteco meaning openness which seems to be equally official..
"Equally official" to what? And on what evidence do you base that opinion?

Reen al la supro