Mergi la conținut

Predicate infinitives

de Roberto12, 18 martie 2011

Contribuții/Mesaje: 51

Limbă: English

ceigered (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 11:59:22

OK, so effectively you could have (using some content from another thread) "Permesu (lasu?) min prezenti al vi S-ro Ng", since there's no word order hiccups there like "I want you to run"?

Miland (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 12:23:37

ceigered:OK, so .. you could have .. "Permesu (lasu?) min prezenti al vi S-ro Ng"..?
IMO, yes.

darkweasel (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 12:34:31

Miland:
ceigered:OK, so .. you could have .. "Permesu (lasu?) min prezenti al vi S-ro Ng"..?
IMO, yes.
IMO, no. Permesu al mi but lasu min.

sudanglo (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 12:34:34

On stylistic grounds, Ceiger, I would prefer lasu min dormi (for example) but permesu al mi kisi vian manon (to give some Zamenhofan ekzamples).

For the introduction (referring to the other thread) I like permesu, ke mi prezentu ..., but permesu al mi, ke mi prezentu... is OK.

Permesu min X-i, sort of jars, but I can't declare it absolutely wrong.

Tip: If you go to Tekstaro and use your mouse over the blue M's next to each text in the corpus you can get access to the text and therefore read quite a bit of Esperanto at no cost.

Miland (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 12:41:37

darkweasel:
Miland:
ceigered:OK, so .. you could have .. "Permesu (lasu?) min prezenti al vi S-ro Ng"..?
IMO, yes.
IMO, no. Permesu al mi..
Permesi according to PIV 2005 is transitive, and therefore can take a direct object, even if al is often used with such verbs.

sudanglo (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 12:47:54

Oh, you can certainly say Mia patrino malpermesis tion.

But with a personal referent, I prefer permesi al vi/ni/ŝi etc.

You would get a double accusative (with attendant confusion) if you allowed permesi min tion.

Miland (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 12:52:17

sudanglo:You would get a double accusative (with attendant confusion) if you allowed permesi min tion.
Yes, that's a good reason to use al in such circumstances.

erinja (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 13:12:01

I treat permesi like telefoni.

Telefoni is also a transitive verb, but the object of telefoni is the information being passed over the telephone.

So you definitely shouldn't say *telefonu min, instead you would say telefonu al mi. Or with an object, telefonu viajn planojn al mi.

ceigered (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 13:21:55

Ah, I see what's happening now -
so "Permesi" is "to permit something (an action)", where as "lasu" in that context would be more "to let something (the doer of the action) out, to let free", yes?

Thanks for all that guys!

(RE that bit where Miland and Darkweasel disagree (or something like that), I'm just gonna go with "lasu min" rather than "permesi min" anyway since if I'm gonna go with the longer word I figure I might as well write it out in full as "permesi al mi" rido.gif)

I might end up reading a bit more of the tekstaro amongst other things in the EO world during the week at university where I'm removed from my home computer and waiting an hour for the next bus home.

Miland (Arată profil) 20 martie 2011, 14:16:39

erinja:Telefoni is also a transitive verb, but the object of telefoni is the information being passed over the telephone.
That is consistent with PIV 2005, but has there not been a popular use of telefoni, similar to words like "knifed (someone)"? Googling telefoni min or telefonu min will show what I mean.

Înapoi mai sus