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punctuation

Korsivo-ისა და 8 აპრილი, 2011-ის მიერ

შეტყობინებები: 14

ენა: English

Korsivo (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 02:50:13

One of the things that I can never get right when I write in English is punctuation. Although I have read things on the internet which seem to confirm that apart from the most striking exception regarding the semicolon the rules are mostly similar to those of Italian, (my native language although I don't use it that often now) their specific utilisation in these two languages result in something that in practice looks to me quite different. Just to give you an example, on one occasion I have been told by a native that it is not good practice to start a sentence with the words 'but' or 'and' after a full stop or period, something I used to do a lot mainly because, to my knowledge, that is not a problem in Italian. Then, another thing that sometimes I do when I write in Italian, is to enclose the words 'e', ('and'), or 'dunque' ('therefore') in between two commas; I don't yet know weather that can be done in English let alone in Esperanto. So now I wonder: what are the rules in Esperanto? Does its flexible quality allow you to use punctuation very freely? I have to admit, my friends, that punctuation is something that I always try to get right more by instinct than by trying to remember rules. But...

3rdblade (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 03:40:00

You post made me think of this line: Kaj katojn kaj hundojn mi amas. Most people wouldn't write it in that direction, but it means 'I love both cats and dogs.'

I try not to start a sentence with 'and' or 'but,' however I do sometimes with 'but' anyway, and in EO too. Eg. 'Sed, mi ne plu posedas aŭton. Ni iru per trajno.' I think 'ja' might actually be a better fit there than 'sed', but then again I can't see why 'sed' is wrong.

Korsivo (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 14:52:00

Thank you for that 3dblade,
"ja mi certas ke..." aŭ "mi ja certas ke..." sound like two equally good ways to start a sentence.

erinja (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 16:28:25

Korsivo, I think one problem is that several Italian words could be translated as "but". However, they also have translations other than "but", and it's possible to use these alternate translations at the beginning of an English sentence.

It's sometimes correct to use "but" at the beginning of a sentence, but the word "but" is complex and has many possible uses and meanings. For some meanings of "but" it's ok to put it at the beginning of a sentence, and for others it isn't.

It's difficult for a non-native speaker of English to master.

One example:
"But for the small pension John received, he would have no money".
This is "but" in the sense of "except for" or "in the absence of" or "without".

tommjames (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 16:59:28

I wouldn't worry about starting an Esperanto sentence with "Sed" or "Kaj". If you search Tekstaro with the query (Sed|Kaj)\\b you'll find countless examples of them being used that way.

bartlett22183 (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 17:26:35

Concerning punctuation, the alleged rules differ even among English speakers and have varied over the centuries. For example, I was taught highly prescriptive punctuation rules for General American English in the middle part of the country in the 1950s. Right is right, and wrong is wrong, and don't you forget it! English speakers in other countries were taught slightly different rules. Nevertheless, what I was taught is so deeply embedded in my skull that to this day, variant usage seems strange and even incorrect. So don't let differences throw you. I have seen variants among some Esperanto writers, and I am not sure what is considered "correct" in all contexts. demando.gif

Paŭlo

Korsivo (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 18:18:05

erinja:
One example:
"But for the small pension John received, he would have no money".
This is "but" in the sense of "except for" or "in the absence of" or "without".
Yes, this "but" at the beginning of the sentence would certainly be more difficult to interpret for a non native.

Here's how I would translate it freely into Italian: "E se non fosse stato per quella poca pensione [che riceveva] John non avrebbe mai avuto un centesimo"

And in Esperanto, with fewer inhibitions a je-ne sais-quoi-non of noncholance:
"John, krom la malgranda pensio recevita, ne havus neniom da monon"

Ĉu tro malbone?

Korsivo (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 18:39:37

tommjames:I wouldn't worry about starting an Esperanto sentence with "Sed" or "Kaj". If you search Tekstaro with the query (Sed|Kaj)\b you'll find countless examples of them being used that way.
Thank you for the link to the textaro, i didn't have it. But(?) i am still at that stage where i would need to check out too many words for it not to be a very frustrating read. iom post iom.

thank you also Paulo for your example of beautiful English with perfect punctuation.

i am strugglin to keep up with all this:
Esperanto estas dependiga!

Ĝis,
Kursivo

jefusan (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 8 აპრილი, 2011 19:14:34

Incidentally, there's really nothing wrong with starting an English sentence with and or but. It's been done for centuries.

danielcg (მომხმარებლის პროფილი) 9 აპრილი, 2011 01:58:00

Hi Korsivo.

Thanks for your information about this rule of punctuation. But I must say it is the first time I hear of it. And I'm not very sure whether that person was right. But, of course, it may be me who is wrong. And in that case I'll be thankful for your corrections. But please be kind when you correct me. And don't forget this is not my mothertongue either.

Regards,

Daniel
(tongue in cheek, of course)

Korsivo:Just to give you an example, on one occasion I have been told by a native that it is not good practice to start a sentence with the words 'but' or 'and' after a full stop or period, something I used to do a lot mainly because, to my knowledge, that is not a problem in Italian.

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