Messages: 61
Language: English
sudanglo (User's profile) April 17, 2011, 9:51:55 AM
Stuck in a traffic jam, I might observe, when finally the traffic begins to move, 'finfine ni ruliĝas denove', though neither iĝas rulanta or rulata seem correct interpretations.
And if the iĝ with a transitive verbs always implies 'at/it', then why do we say 'mi konatiĝis kun la verkoj de Zamenhof nur jarojn poste'
tommjames (User's profile) April 17, 2011, 10:39:50 AM
sudanglo:And if the iĝ with a transitive verbs always implies 'at/it'I don't really see it that way. In a transitive verb, -iĝ conveys the middle voice, or mediopassive; what PAG would call the mediala. Much of the time we'd translate such verbs using the passive voice in English, but that doesn't make them passive, or mean that we have to think of "ruliĝi" as "being rolled".
When something rompiĝas, it's not being broken. Not necessarily anyway. The same is true of moviĝi, ruliĝi, leviĝi etc. Of course something could break or move or roll or levitate because something or someone has broken or moved or rolled or raised it, but that's besides the point. The mediopassive presents the action in a way that renders the agent responsible for the action as a side issue: not quite active, not quite passive, but somewhere inbetween.
I think it's clear, that it would be completely against sense in Esperanto to suppose "rompiĝi" to mean "iĝi rompanta".
As far as I know "konatiĝi" is something of an exception to the whole thing in that it is thought to mean "iĝi konato" or "iĝi konata".
Kirilo81 (User's profile) April 17, 2011, 12:21:57 PM
sudanglo:I'm afraid that 'ingressive or fientive nuance ' is too technical for my simple brain, but the case of ruliĝi is an interesting one.I'm sorry: ingressive = beginning an action (e.g ekiri), fientive = changing/beginning a state (e.g. eksidi, ruĝiĝi).
With intransitive verbs, adjectival and substantival roots, -iĝ has it's lexical meaning "to become" or an ingressive "to begin".
But this meaning is overwritten with transitive roots, where -iĝ just takes away the transitivity.
Returning to the original question this means that it would be against any tradition in E-o to use -iĝ with transitive verbs in the meaning "to start to X". For this purpose there is ek-.
sudanglo:And if the iĝ with a transitive verbs always implies 'at/it', then why do we say 'mi konatiĝis kun la verkoj de Zamenhof nur jarojn poste'Yes, but it's konatiĝi, not just koniĝi, so that's something different as the base is a participle.
sudanglo (User's profile) April 18, 2011, 10:19:47 AM
Nevertheless there are activities where you wouldn't normally stop abruptly. There are things you have to do before coming to a stop. There's a transitional phase.
I have a bit of a problem with 'ekfini', and I feel that finiĝi more clearly captures this idea.
So a mother to a child or a teacher to a class, I feel might say Vi finiĝu nun, implying that the child shut put his toys away (or finish off their game) or the class should complete what they were doing before moving on to something else.
If that tro perfortas la tradicion then what do I say?
tommjames (User's profile) April 18, 2011, 10:38:01 AM
sudanglo:I feel might say Vi finiĝu nun, implying that the child shut put his toys away (or finish off their game)Can't you just say "ĉesu ludi"?
Kirilo81 (User's profile) April 18, 2011, 11:48:26 AM
sudanglo:Words like komenci and fini are more difficult because they themselves already denote a start/stop of action or state. Neither ekkomenci nor its not norm-compliant surrogate *komenciĝi make sence ("to start beginning"; e.g. ekruliĝi on the other hand is useful), while with fini it's a bit different:
Nevertheless there are activities where you wouldn't normally stop abruptly. There are things you have to do before coming to a stop. There's a transitional phase.
I have a bit of a problem with 'ekfini', and I feel that finiĝi more clearly captures this idea.
So a mother to a child or a teacher to a class, I feel might say Vi finiĝu nun, implying that the child shut put his toys away (or finish off their game) or the class should complete what they were doing before moving on to something else.
If that tro perfortas la tradicion then what do I say?
ekfini does have some sence, but you don't really need to use ek- unless you want to stress the beginning.
And why should you want to say ekfinu (=*finiĝu) "start to end" in the situation you described? Finu (vian ludon) aŭ ĉesu does this quite well. I think for most people this also would imply a transition period, while an abrupt stop would be rather exceptional, something you should mark overtly.
Miland (User's profile) April 18, 2011, 12:23:47 PM
Kirilo81:fientive = changing/beginning a state (e.g. eksidi, ruĝiĝi).I didn't find "fientive" in Chamber's or the OED. Some websites that mention it, however suggest that it refers to the continuation of an action.
What is your source or authority for saying that "fientive" refers to the beginning of a state?
tommjames (User's profile) April 18, 2011, 1:01:44 PM
Kirilo81 (User's profile) April 18, 2011, 1:10:33 PM
Miland:I didn't find "fientive" in Chamber's or the OED. Some websites that mention it, however suggest that it refers to the continuation of an action.(Damn, just noticed that my answer got lost, so again
What is your source or authority for saying that "fientive" refers to the beginning of a state?
I just added -e to the German "fientiv", thinking that this was an internationalism, but perhaps it's just confined to Indo-European linguistics.
So, I don't know what the appropriate English term should be. At least in my tradition "inchoative" covers both state and action.
Miland (User's profile) April 18, 2011, 8:02:50 PM
Kirilo81:I just added -e to the German "fientiv"..perhaps it's just confined to Indo-European linguistics...Actually the term in English seems to be associated more with semitic languages. Further, it appears to express action rather than state, as this google page from a Hebrew grammar indicates (section 134, "Fientive Qal"). Perhaps some Hebraists can confirm this?