Love your definitions, ceigered.

By "definition", of course, everyone knows I am referring to "the appearance of a hem at the bottom of a pair of trousers, when it is worn enough that you can make out the individual threads connecting the two sides of the trouser leg, but the threads have not yet given out enough to create holes and to allow true fraying to take place"

sudanglo:
I think that there are some contexts in which ĝiri might be preferred. I think blinda ĝirejo would work well as a road sign and seems nicer than blinda turniĝo.

I'm not sure what a blinda ĝirejo, but whatever it is, wouldn't a blinda turnejo (rather than turniĝo, since the -IĜ- suffix isn't needed here) be the same thing? Is it a blind traffic circle?

Where there is no good reason to change, expressions from NPIV and the Esperanta Bildvortaro should be conserved for the sake of continuity in the language (one of the arguments for using ĝirejo - found in both)

I disagree. As a self-described Finvenkist, you ought to be actively resisting the accretion of redundant words in Esperanto, since these words make the language harder to learn without adding expressive power. Ĝiri has no advantage over turniĝi (by the way, does NPIV mark ĝiri as transitive or intransitive?), and has the disadvantage of colliding with another word. That's enough to make it evitinda.

By the way on words with close meanings, we already have aleo, bulvardo and avenuo. So why all the fuss about ĝiri.

I think there are plenty of other fussworthy cases, and these may be among them. Are there any useful distinctions between these words? To me, aleo is a cognate of "alley", and an alley is a special kind of street. In US English, at least, an alley is a small street used for access to the backs of buildings or houses. The house that I live in has an alley in back.

ReVo, however, defines aleo differently, as either vojo en ĝardeno or Larĝa strato, ombrita per du vicoj da arboj; avenuo. (English: large street, shaded by two rows of trees) Personally, I would never use English "alley" to refer to either of these kinds of things, so this makes it a false cognate. I do think of a "boulevard" as a large street, often tree-lined, usually straight and usually an important street, something very different from an alley.

ReVo defines avenuo as Larĝa strato por densa trafiko, which sets it apart from the more generic strato.

Ceiger signing the back of a cheque is 'endosi' in Esperanto - transferring from one account to another is 'ĝiri'.

Endosi is an international form (in practically all Eurolanguages except Italian). See Komerca-Ekonomika Vortaro en 9 lingvoj, NPIV, Wells, Esperanta Bildvortaro etc

Finvenkistoj Todd, want more than hobbyist use of the language. So we would be concerned with how to do road signs and SATnav instructions, and the Highway Code.

And I think ĝiri extends Esperanto's expressive power. It allows an economical distinction between turn right and bear right.

Does anybody know if the highway code of any country has been done in Esperanto?

On the subject of whether Esperanto is easy, you have to specify the learning period.
Obviously, the progress that a beginner can make in Esperanto in 5 hours of study far exceeds the progress of a beginner in the first five hours of French.

Make that period of study much longer and Esperanto becomes progressively less easy in comparison with national language learning.

At the very advanced level it's almost effortless to further improve in a national language (TV, native speakers etc). Many Esperantists never reach a comparable level.

Look at the time wasted here over discussing ĝiri. Would never happen with a national language - so easy to find out the right expression. You ask a native speaker or trust the dictionary.

sudanglo:At the very advanced level it's almost effortless to further improve in a national language (TV, native speakers etc). Many Esperantists never reach a comparable level.

That is completely false... It's true that for me it's easier now to learn/absorb new things about English, but I will never reach the level a native has... On the other hand, if I learn something new in English, it adds now a very small percentage to what I already know. Given the structure of Esperanto, every time I learn something new in Esperanto, it adds more knowledge than I would expect.

sudanglo:Look at the time wasted here over discussing ĝiri. Would never happen with a national language - so easy to find out the right expression. You ask a native speaker or trust the dictionary.

Uff... look here how long have been a group of natives discussing about something as simple as a hot dog.

Amike,

Daniel

Nevertheless Henma, there's more than a grain of truth in what I said. It's a hard slog at the highest level with Esperanto, because the range of literature and films for Esperanto is relatively limited and our native speakers are not comparable to national language native speakers.

Comparing American English with British English, that's a whole different ball game, and with food even within the UK you will find regional variations. But everybody in the UK would use the same terms for driving and other everyday activities.

In Esperanto you still have lots of different words for a 'supermarket'. It's all down to the different usage of Esperanto and national languages.

Nobody can deny that there's only limited usage of Esperanto in certain fields. When did you last use Esperanto in a shop? There aren't many European languages that are barely used for shopping.

sudanglo:In Esperanto you still have lots of different words for a 'supermarket'. It's all down to the different usage of Esperanto and national languages.

So what? In English, what do you call the rolling thing that you use to hold your groceries as you shop? A shopping cart, a trolley, a carriage, a buggy? A basket? Goodness gracious, even on the East Coast of the United States, there are at least three names for this very simple thing that everyone uses.

You seem so very intent on trashing anyone who isn't a Finvenkist and accusing them of not wanting to develop vocabulary, but I don't find that to be the case at all. I wish you would stop, because I find it insulting and patronising that you presume to know someone's opinion on the development of Esperanto vocabulary, based solely on that person's opinion of Esperanto's likelihood ever to reach any degree of universality whatsoever.

I'm not a Finvenkist but I live my life using practical Esperanto to a degree that most Finvenkists (or Raumists for that matter) don't. That includes you, unless you happen to live in an Esperanto-speaking home and I never heard about it. I care about the development of Esperanto vocabulary because I talk about EVERY topic in Esperanto. That's including daily life, including my job, including shopping, cooking, bus schedules, airports, directions in a car, and every other thing. I care a lot about these things because it's important in communicating with my boyfriend and with other Esperantists that we meet in our travels.

So please don't insult me with your patronising conclusions about Raumists (or about me or anyone else) based on our opinions about one single word. I've done long road trips in Esperanto, where someone read a map to me as I drove, and we had no problems understanding one another. Airplane trips, train trips, grocery shopping, house cleaning, and computer tech support, I've done them in Esperanto. Don't insult me by insinuating that people who think like me don't care about vocabulary because Esperanto is 'only a hobby' to us.

I am not getting at you personally Erinja. But I just don't get it as to why a Raumist would care about developing road signs in Esperanto (for example). If you care about such things, we are in the same camp, philosophically speaking.

But there are Esperantists who have a very limited view of the applicability of Esperanto, inward-looking towards 'Esperanto-culture' and not outwards to the wider world.

Unless I have seriously misunderstood the Raŭmisma declaration this different stance distinguishes it clearly from Finvenkismo whose adherents however they view the probability or exact form of the Fina Venko clearly must believe that the language be ready to take on its role outside the Esperanto community.

By the way, in the UK the things you push round a supermarket are trolleys, the things you carry in your hand are baskets.

Nobody use carts, carriages or buggies in this sense. We only know 'add to cart' from American commercial websites.

erinja:Love your definitions, ceigered.

By "definition", of course, everyone knows I am referring to "the appearance of a hem at the bottom of a pair of trousers, when it is worn enough that you can make out the individual threads connecting the two sides of the trouser leg, but the threads have not yet given out enough to create holes and to allow true fraying to take place"

I think I just got one-upped!

Sudanglo:Ceiger signing the back of a cheque is 'endosi' in Esperanto - transferring from one account to another is 'ĝiri'.

Endosi is an international form (in practically all Eurolanguages except Italian). See Komerca-Ekonomika Vortaro en 9 lingvoj, NPIV, Wells, Esperanta Bildvortaro etc

Finvenkistoj Todd, want more than hobbyist use of the language. So we would be concerned with how to do road signs and SATnav instructions, and the Highway Code.

And I think ĝiri extends Esperanto's expressive power. It allows an economical distinction between turn right and bear right.

Well, it still isn't looking good for ĝiri, if it's OTHER meaning is also being done better by another word. So far, both its meanings have had their jobs taken.

Now look, as for expressive power, I don't think ĝiri should get the boot. But in places where we want to be clear, e.g. when trying to direct a motorist so they don't got down a one-way tollgate road, they'd probably prefer something so mundanely clear, and ĝiri's not doing better than any other word, be it turni, stiri, ktp.

Sudanglo:Look at the time wasted here over discussing ĝiri. Would never happen with a national language - so easy to find out the right expression. You ask a native speaker or trust the dictionary.

It's very easy to find an expression - "turni (mal)dekstren (or maybe "turni liven" if that can somehow be pushed into use). The problem we're having is that English clearly has a whole bunch of words for this sort of thing that aren't necessarily translatable into Esperanto or any other language - in fact, some of these words aren't translatable into Australian English ("bear right" would be interpreted as "turn right" very often - then again, market penetration of the GPS seems behind here...)

Anyway, we've got all the time in the world to discuss such things, even if the conversation is stagnating a bit, so it's not like we need to reach a quick conclusion. Aren't we all being purposely over-analytical and trying hard to find the benefits and faults of whatever word we fancy to find out what truly is the best phrase?

sudanglo:But I just don't get it as to why a Raumist would care about developing road signs in Esperanto (for example). If you care about such things, we are in the same camp, philosophically speaking.

But there are Esperantists who have a very limited view of the applicability of Esperanto, inward-looking towards 'Esperanto-culture' and not outwards to the wider world.

Unless I have seriously misunderstood the Raŭmisma declaration this different stance distinguishes it clearly from Finvenkismo whose adherents however they view the probability or exact form of the Fina Venko clearly must believe that the language be ready to take on its role outside the Esperanto community.

I believe the Raumist would care because it means developing the language. Raumism doesn't have to be opposed to Finvenkism, it just doesn't have the same scope.

Finvenkism basically wants Esperanto to be the official world auxiliary language, and to get there, the language needs to be developed for outside use, which means the language needs to be developed in pretty much every thinkable way possible, where as the raumists merely want the language and culture developed and don't care about the whole actual "conquering the world" thing.

Their priorities, while different, lead to many identical outcomes - Esperanto being a language with a well developed speaker culture, basically. The raumists seem to not care so much about how that culture is developed provided its done nice and correctly, while the finvenkists seem to want it developed in a way that suits the rest of the world.

sudanglo, you seem to spend a lot of time talking about finvenkists and raumists in general, and I don't really see the point. There's a lot of "Well of course a Raumist would say ..." going on.

I would prefer to listen to people's opinions and judge those opinions on their individual merits. Nothing is gained by labelling them as "Well of course a XYZ would say that", as if their opinion is a foregone conclusion. You have so many negative opinions of Raumists and I have no idea why, because it doesn't seem like anyone is sitting around here attacking finvenkists (or even mentioning them).

So maybe we can just talk about our opinions and stop bringing up what raumists or finvenkists think, and we would all be much happier.