Messaggi: 116
Lingua: English
erinja (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 02:37:10
sudanglo:Let's not be ridiculous here.Are you calling me ridiculous, because I choose to hold by the Academy of Esperanto's official definition of the word ĝir/i?
As I already said earlier in this thread, you can do what you please. But for me, I choose to hold by what the Academy says. I don't particularly care if PIV says something else, I hold by the Academy.
And I have every interest in ensuring that Esperanto can be used to talk about every topic on Earth. There is nothing finvenkista or raumista about that, in my opinion. BUT that doesn't mean that I have to agree with your personal opinion on the suitability or unsuitability of a particular root for a particular use.
ceigered (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 03:51:31
sudanglo:Nor if I saw a road sign warning of a danĝera ĝirejo, would I for one moment suppose that this warned me of a dubious money transfer shop.Outside that moment with a lot of additional context, it'd be quite confusing though, no?
Let's not be ridiculous here.
Anyway, why bother with "ĝiri" when there's "turni"? Sounds like saying "Dangerous gyration!" instead of "Dangerous turn!"
(ultimately "ĝiri" doesn't sound like it should be the first term to come to mind with such controversy) 
Miland (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 09:18:47
erinja:I choose to hold by what the Academy says. I don't particularly care if PIV says something else, I hold by the Academy.The use of ĝiri for turning a vehicle does not contradict the established meaning in the Akademia vortaro, but represents an additional meaning acquired through evolving use. It's inclusion in Wells lends support to its legitimacy, even if we don't usually need it. This has happened with words like mus/o for a computer accessory, which is not in the AV, but is in PIV 2005.
Words take time to appear in dictionaries. As yet, mojosa is not in printed dictionaries, but I predict that it's only a matter of time.
darkweasel (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 09:28:29
Miland:In my dictionary (Ulrich Matthias / Dietrich M. Weidmann - Kleines Wörterbuch Deutsch-Esperanto/Esperanto-Deutsch), it is!
mojosa is not in printed dictionaries
mojos·a cool, super, geil
tommjames (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 09:30:05
darkweasel:Mojose!Miland:In my dictionary (Ulrich Matthias / Dietrich M. Weidmann - Kleines Wörterbuch Deutsch-Esperanto/Esperanto-Deutsch), it is!
mojosa is not in printed dictionaries
sudanglo (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 09:48:31
It is listed in the Lernu vortaro! And of course in NPIV, Wells and Benson - but not for some reason in REVO.
ceigered (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 09:54:50
sudanglo:Ceiger 'gyration' in the sense of going round and round is 'giri' in Esperanto (not to be confused with ĝiri).Well then, if you've got "giri" and "turni", why do you need ANOTHER word for "turn"?
It is listed in the Lernu vortaro! And of course in NPIV, Wells and Benson - but not for some reason in REVO.
You've already got "turni", which is perfect. Then you've got "giri", which is less perfect but could theoretically be used, but to add "ĝiri"... If this were economics, we'd have too much supply, not enough demand, and heading very quickly towards a depression.
horsto (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 12:21:05
) ĝiri in this meaning is described in this way: I think the origin is from sailing, I cannot describe it in english, therefore I try to do it in Esperanto:ĝiri estas marista termino kiu priskribas manovron de veloŝipo. Ĝi signifas turni la veloŝipon tiel, ke la pruo (bow) de la ŝipo moviĝas al la direkto el kiu venas la vento.
I think this meaning was then taken for cars. The main meaning is turning around the car (180°). But I think it is also used for sudden or dangerous steering.
T0dd (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 13:29:52
horsto:I'm confused. The definition given here sounds very much like the English nautical verb "tack", as in "tack into the wind". I don't think this is suitable for the meaning of "bear" in question.
ĝiri estas marista termino kiu priskribas manovron de veloŝipo. Ĝi signifas turni la veloŝipon tiel, ke la pruo (bow) de la ŝipo moviĝas al la direkto el kiu venas la vento.
I think this meaning was then taken for cars. The main meaning is turning around the car (180°). But I think it is also used for sudden or dangerous steering.
The English verbs "swerve" and "veer" have the connotation of suddenness, which is not implied by "bear".
We've had a lot of discussion of the fact that ĝiri is in NPIV. What is the relevant definition there?
I'm not opposed to the introduction of new words, but it seems to me that there should be some criteria of acceptability. Surely it's better to add an actual new root than to add an utterly different meaning to an existing root. And surely it's better to discourage the addition of words that simply duplicate words already in use.
If the proposed meaning of ĝiri is simply to turn, in the intransitive sense, then we already have turniĝi for that. It's true that the English verb "to bear", in the directional sense, is different from "to turn", in the intransitive sense. But we've yet to see an actual Esperanto definition that indicates that ĝiri has this meaning.
NJ Esperantist (Mostra il profilo) 21 aprile 2011 14:05:28
horsto:In my dictionary (also from an Akademiano, which will please MilandFor cars then, perhaps we should use the verb 'stiri'
ĝiri estas marista termino kiu priskribas manovron de veloŝipo. Ĝi signifas turni la veloŝipon tiel, ke la pruo (bow) de la ŝipo moviĝas al la direkto el kiu venas la vento.
I think this meaning was then taken for cars. The main meaning is turning around the car (180°). But I think it is also used for sudden or dangerous steering.