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Asking about experience level

de Maulrus, 2011-majo-10

Mesaĝoj: 31

Lingvo: English

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-11 12:49:43

Chainy:
Maulrus:To my inexperienced eye, "kiom bona" makes the most sense, but a more popular consensus to be "kiel bone". Which makes more sense? Would you use an adverb or an adjective here?
I would say stick with 'Kiel bone vi parolas Esperanton?'. I was reading an essay about this recently - and there it stated that Zamenhof, the creator of the language, would tend to stick with 'kiel' in such a case.
Oh cripes, seriously? I thought the general consensus was against that otherwise I would have continued with "kiel bona". Damn myself for my lack of attention to this damn language damn...

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-11 13:05:18

I don't agree with visually marking someone's language proficiency on a nametag. At any rate you usually figure it out pretty quickly after saying "Saluton" to someone.

I came into contact with a lot of speakers of different levels through manning the registration desk at last year's US annual convention. I would start off in Esperanto and it was easy to read the person's face to tell if I needed to slow down and simplify my speech, or just switch to English to make sure they understood the important information.

One thing that I think is helpful to everyone, is when language events mark on the schedule which programs are appropriate for beginners. That is, a beginner is probably not too interested in attending a scholarly speech in Esperanto, but a beginner could still fully participate in a dance class.

Maulrus (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-11 13:47:49

Wow. I suppose my assumption about the importance of experience level came from the reading I've done; when all of your information on a language come from strict grammatical data, it's hard for me to not automatically overstate the importance of impeccable grammar. This is the first language I've had the opportunity to speak around other speakers, and I really did have no idea that this might even be a contentious subject. The more you know!

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-11 14:17:43

Maulrus:This is the first language I've had the opportunity to speak around other speakers, and I really did have no idea that this might even be a contentious subject. The more you know!
Thank god Latin doesn't have this problem! ridulo.gif

I guess there are times though that you can openly ask how someone feels about their own Esperanto/Italian/German/Japanese/etc, but it's the sort of thing I never think about unless there's a specific reason, and I'd just ask in English anyway okulumo.gif

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-11 14:20:33

Experience level is important in terms of normal human dynamics. A beginner would probably not have very much fun hanging around with experienced speakers who are talking with one another, saying things that the beginner mostly can't understand. An experienced speaker will probably not have very much fun with a beginner who can barely choke out a sentence. The experienced speaker and the beginner can get along well if they show a lot of patience for one another. But you would have no reason ever to ask someone their experience level, because in most cases, it's obvious as soon as they open their mouth and say something.

Plus there are many people who would mark themselves 'experienced' who speak with very faulty grammar; I don't know if I'd call that experienced or not. This person would be fine to have a conversation with but I would never call on them to teach a class or explain a grammatical point to a beginner, since obviously they don't care to study enough to correct their own grammar.

I can't ever see myself asking or being asked about experience level. However, a more common (and polite) question would be "How long have you been involved with Esperanto?"

["Kiel longe vi envolviĝas pri Esperanto?" or more often "Kiam vi esperantiĝis?"]

(sometimes the answer will surprise you - it could be a very long time for a very poor speaker, or a very short time for a very good speaker!)

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-11 14:43:16

erinja:"Kiam vi esperantiĝis?"
A question I've seen often, but I miss the -ist suffix here. I'd prefer: Kiam vi esperantistighis?

erinja (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-11 15:42:25

esperanto = one who hopes
Kiam vi esperantiĝis? = When did you become one who hopes?

"Kiam vi esperantistiĝis?" also makes good grammatical sense, and I would never call it wrong.

But I prefer "esperantiĝi"; I see it as a traditional choice. For example, in "La Espero", we have the line "...per laboro de la esperantoj", "by the work of the ones who hope".

By becoming an Esperantist, you metaphorically become one who hopes, so I think "esperantiĝi" makes good sense.

Maulrus (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-12 02:32:17

Well thank you everybody for all the input! Even if I won't be asking anybody some of these questions, I appreciate the exposure to good Esperanto; this topic has cleared up some questions I had about correlatives (though I anticipate many more).

3rdblade (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-12 22:19:42

Re asking about experience level, I have found that some language learners label themselves, and the result is slower learning. "I'm not very good at studying, I'm hopeless at grammar, people don't understand my pronunciation," etc. Naming things is not always a good thing. In this case, I think people will figure out your level pretty fast, and esperantists are very tolerant about this kind of thing as we've all been beginners. When I started meeting people and speaking Esperanto, my level was lower, but I spoke clearly, a little slowly, and a little more loudly and deeply, and what do you think? I did it at a Zamenhof day last year and people told me that I was really good at speaking. Self-confidence and building it up in different ways is a big part of learning.

Maulrus (Montri la profilon) 2011-majo-13 02:57:59

3rdblade:Re asking about experience level, I have found that some language learners label themselves, and the result is slower learning. "I'm not very good at studying, I'm hopeless at grammar, people don't understand my pronunciation," etc. Naming things is not always a good thing. In this case, I think people will figure out your level pretty fast, and esperantists are very tolerant about this kind of thing as we've all been beginners. When I started meeting people and speaking Esperanto, my level was lower, but I spoke clearly, a little slowly, and a little more loudly and deeply, and what do you think? I did it at a Zamenhof day last year and people told me that I was really good at speaking. Self-confidence and building it up in different ways is a big part of learning.
Having read all of the arguments put forth, I agree that my desire to quantify experience was nothing but another unnecessary classification that we are so eager to make. From here on out I'll be sure to stop worrying about such trifles.

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