chicago1:
The confusion over correlatives I've since proven for myself in real life. On a ski trip, one of my friends met a French Canadian woman who was familiar with Eo, and we got to teaching everyone some phrases at the table. Yes, new students, but the tie, tio tiel, etc thing bordered on disastrous, and actually eventually killed everyone's interest. It was esp frustrating for my friends that already knew Italian or Spanish, who were convinced that we must be wrong -- there was no way these words would be so much alike.

I'm sorry but I call bull stuff. The correlatives are no more "so much alike" than verb conjugations in Italian or Spanish: a root (same one for 6 forms) plus a different ending for each of the 6 forms. If they have no problem with their verbs, then they're either being disingenuous or stupid. My guess is the former.

henma:Spanish saying, don't know if there is an English version: si se ve como un pato, camina como un pato y grazna como un pato... es un pato)

Google trans: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... it is a duck". Sounds all right to me (in translation). Please provide an English translation with such texts, as not all of us know Spanish.

Miland:

henma:Spanish saying, don't know if there is an English version: si se ve como un pato, camina como un pato y grazna como un pato... es un pato)

Google trans: "If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck ... it is a duck". Sounds all right to me (in translation). Please provide an English translation with such texts, as not all of us know Spanish.

That would be about right, no? Interesting that both languages use the phrase identically; I wonder which used it first?

Donniedillon:As someone who doesn't wash his hands before dinner and occasionally pillages nearby villages it take offense at the gratuitous use of the label "uncultured barbarian."

Must be a relation to me.

Henma:I don't think we are acting like a "bunch of uncultured barbarians".

I mean using troll gratuitously is the "uncultured barbarian" part.

@ Tommjames and BlackOtaku - crap, sorry, I got confused over who was the OP - BlackOtaku you were trying to resolve the misunderstandings and I accidentally thought you were the OP lol.

That said, seriously, the troll calling is silly. Practically identical to the crap that kids spurt in 3rd grade. I don't care whether he's had a 39-message thread, of which most were off-topic, or whether Chicago just doesn't learn, calling him names is childish. It's public mockery and disgusting behaviour, and I actually am quite ashamed at the direction this forum has been heading in. I don't mind the berating, argumentation, fighting etc, but comments like "Obvious troll is obvious" I think are unbecoming of this "tolerant community" (tolerant of course doesn't mean putting up with deja vu crap). I don't mind you berating Chicago for reposting this stuff again, but I'm very disappointed.

I think the impact of name calling and labelling someone is being severely underestimated.

Damn, if only this was real life. The threat of a punched-in nose from the name-callee tends to deter this name calling from occuring in the real world.

orthohawk:

chicago1:
The confusion over correlatives I've since proven for myself in real life. On a ski trip, one of my friends met a French Canadian woman who was familiar with Eo, and we got to teaching everyone some phrases at the table. Yes, new students, but the tie, tio tiel, etc thing bordered on disastrous, and actually eventually killed everyone's interest. It was esp frustrating for my friends that already knew Italian or Spanish, who were convinced that we must be wrong -- there was no way these words would be so much alike.

I'm sorry but I call bull stuff. The correlatives are no more "so much alike" than verb conjugations in Italian or Spanish: a root (same one for 6 forms) plus a different ending for each of the 6 forms. If they have no problem with their verbs, then they're either being disingenuous or stupid. My guess is the former.

I agree. I had to work hard to remember the correlative equivalents in the Romance languages, because all I could remember is that each had a "k" sound

The friends that were convinced you were wrong, honestly, it sounds like they need to get outside their bubble, or they had the wrong impression of EO. Not to mention it's rather rude for them to consider you wrong unless you gave them the wrong impression. Anyway, in practice something like correlatives I'd leave well to later, or at least introduce them one at a time slowly and separately - in any language too.

ceigered:

orthohawk:I'm sorry but I call bull stuff. The correlatives are no more "so much alike" than verb conjugations in Italian or Spanish: a root (same one for 6 forms) plus a different ending for each of the 6 forms. If they have no problem with their verbs, then they're either being disingenuous or stupid. My guess is the former.

I agree. I had to work hard to remember the correlative equivalents in the Romance languages, because all I could remember is that each had a "k" sound

I have to agree too.

In Spanish:
tiu/tio/tiel/tia/tie = ese/eso/así/así/ahí
kiu/kio/kiel/kia/kiam/kiom = quién/qué/cómo/cómo/cuándo/cuánto
iu/io/iom = alguien/algo/algo

Lots of the correlatives don't have a direct translation and are translated using expressions with "ese/algún" + something else. It can be dificult to learn. In "subphrases", "ki-" words usually are all "que" in Spanish.

For me English "ki-" equivalents are all "wh-" (excepto for how, in which w strangely goes to the end ).

I remember also in Japanese those groups of words:

kore/sore/are/dore - this/that/that over there/which one (like -o tabelvortoj)
koko/soko/asoko/doko - here/there/over there/where
kono/sono/ano (not sure if there is a fourth one here) - this/that/that over there (like -u tabelvortoj)

Sorry for using romaji, but it is not that clear in hiragana.

When I first saw the table of correlatives I really thought that it was such a good idea to have them so logically ordered.

Amike,

Daniel.

henma:I remember also in Japanese those groups of words:

kore/sore/are/dore - this/that/that over there/which one (like -o tabelvortoj)
koko/soko/asoko/doko - here/there/over there/where
kono/sono/ano (not sure if there is a fourth one here) - this/that/that over there (like -u tabelvortoj)

Sorry for using romaji, but it is not that clear in hiragana.

Indeed - not to mention things like polite forms!
(koko, soko, asoko, doko -> kochira, sochira, achira(?), dochira)
And good ol' dare (seemingly related to "kare", but probably coincidential).
In fact, Japanese rivals Esperanto's correlatives I'd have to say, if not by taking it a step further (but a step back thanks to "nande" and other words). And everyone in my Japanese class finds them pretty easy from what I've heard (words like "basement" and "conference room", not so much)

So I'd say for esperanto one big factor is how it's taught. Throwing tial, tiel, tie, tiam, tiom all at once at the learner would be overwhelming. But teaching what ki-, ti-, ĉi-, neni- mean, and then introducing the "endings" slowly (e.g. -ial has the meaning of "reason", so what would ki + ial mean? [What reason] And how can we say that simpler in English? [Why]) should be a pretty sound method to prevent confusion, no?

黄鸡蛋:"asoko" may be a little strange, though (why not "ako"?)
And for kono/sono/ano, dono exists, of course.

In fact, kochira/sochira/achira/dochira are not just polite forms of koko/soko/asoko/doko, because they can mean I/you/he(she)/who.　(It's a rare case that achira means he(she), though)
There are also other groups:
kocchi/socchi/acchi/docchi - the same as kochira/sochira/achira/dochira though not that polite
kou/sou/aa/dou (or maybe kō/sō/ā/dō) - ĉi tiel, tiel, tiel, kiel (Oh, it seems hard to explain the difference between so- and a- here, but aa is rare, in fact)
konata/sonata/anata/donata - originally the same as kochira/sochira/achira/dochira, but the meaning of anata has become "you".
konna/sonna/anna/donna - ĉi tia, tia, tia, kia (Again, hard to explain the difference between so- and a- here)

Oh, thanks a lot for that. I was not sure about dono (when I hear dono, though, I think of the honorific, like -san/-sama/-kun/-dono)

I never though of sou as part of the table, but I knew sou and dou... I should have suspected about the rest (kou, at least).

I think that the difference between sou/aa and sonna/anna should be analogous to the other ones in the table... it's difficult to imagine, I understand why they are uncommon.

Really interesting to know the origin of "anata".

I don't know how somebody can argue against logical and coherent structures in a language... When you understand the idea, and know enough of the structure, you can deduce the parts you don't know... After some time it's easier to start thinking with that structure (and you start missing something like that in your own language)

Amike,

Daniel.

...logical and coherent structures...

Relative.

1: I found the correlatives quite difficult to remember, clear up until one day when suddenly they weren't anymore. But I still remember how often I had to keep reminding myself of what means what. I found them maddeningly similar to one another (until, as I said, one day I suddenly developed the powers necessary to keep them straight).

2: Calling a troll a troll isn't meant to insult them. As trollness is a choice, one can suppose that they already realize they are being a troll, on purpose, and fully accept that fact. Calling a troll a troll is meant as a warning to everyone ELSE that they are about to embark upon an already well trodden path which will not result in anything new worth noting.

I still believe that we should formally adopt the position regarding changes to Esperanto that Lernu will be happy to incorporate any and all new proposed changes, immediately AFTER the rest of the worldwide Esperanto community does. Because once everyone else has adopted a particular change, that means it is now standard, and Lernu is all about teaching standard Esperanto. So, if you've got a change you want to make, great! If you can convince the rest of the world to adopt your proposal first, you can be sure that Lernu won't be far behind!