Berichten: 40
Taal: English
henma (Profiel tonen) 20 mei 2011 21:44:44
darkweasel:You use "tial" where in English you'd use "that's why"/"that's the reason why".chicago1:No, you use kial here - just like in English.
On the use of "tial," does one use it to say "Tell me why you called her":
"Diru al mi tial vi telefonis shin."
Virinoj venas el Venuso, Viroj el Marso... tial ili ne komprenas unuj la aliajn.
Amike,
Daniel.
Miland (Profiel tonen) 20 mei 2011 22:32:27
ceigered (Profiel tonen) 21 mei 2011 03:03:19
- kial = for what reason
- tial = for that reason
- ĉial = for every reason?
- nenial = for no reason
(sort of useless IMHO. Except in maybe
"Kial vi faris tion?! Pro mono?! Pro amikoj?! Pro koramiko?!!"
"ĈIAL MI FARIS TION!")
Actually, if I may but in here, how the hell are you meant to use "ĉial" and "nenial"? "A) Kial vi manĝis la fiŝon? B) Nenial..."? But ĉial seems even harder to put into a sentence...
henma (Profiel tonen) 21 mei 2011 03:24:20
ceigered:Actually, if I may but in here, how the hell are you meant to use "ĉial" and "nenial"? "A) Kial vi manĝis la fiŝon? B) Nenial..."? But ĉial seems even harder to put into a sentence...I'll give some examples found in PMEG (ok, ok, for ĉial is THE example I found):
Vi povus inciti lin kiom ajn. Li nenial kolerus - You can provoke him however much (you want?). He for no reason gets angry.
Vi demandas, kial mi amas vin. Mi respondas: ĉial! - You ask why I love you. I answer: for all reasons.
(But, I should say, for us, which have a female partner, this only example can be really useful).
My English translations are a bit literal, if somebody can improve them, that would be welcome.
On ĉiam, PMEG adds:
En la praktiko ĉial estas apenaŭ uzata. (In practice, 'ĉiam' is barely used).
Amike,
Daniel.
darkweasel (Profiel tonen) 21 mei 2011 07:04:58
I can easily imagine use of nenial, for example:
Kial vi faris tion? - Nenial! Mi ja tute ne faris tion!
ceigered (Profiel tonen) 21 mei 2011 07:05:59
henma:Vi demandas, kial mi amas vin. Mi respondas: ĉial! - You ask why I love you. I answer: for all reasons.Mmm.. I can't translate that myself in a way that sounds relatively normal, but in that situation in English we'd probably say "because (I do)!", as if to say "do I need a reason?".
Miland (Profiel tonen) 21 mei 2011 10:53:40
ceigered:..how .. are you meant to use "ĉial" and "nenial"?I suspect that ĉial might be used for effect more than anything. "Kial ni pliigu flughavenan sekurecon?" "Ĉial! Ni devas protekti nin kontraŭ terorismo, ni devas malhelpi kontrabandistojn, ni devas kuraĝigi vizitantojn.." But I don't see it being used much. As for nenial, here's one suggestion: La frenezulo nenial subite komencis ataki la ĉirkau-ulojn per tranĉilo (This actually happened with a lunatic in Birmingham city centre many years ago).
tommjames (Profiel tonen) 21 mei 2011 11:22:21
nenialIt's worth pointing out that the neni-words are "neaj vortoj" meaning they negate the phrase (see darkweasel's example above), and so using nenial in positive phrases like "nenial atakis" (where an attack did take place) could be considered questionable usage. PMEG's opinion is that such a phrase can only mean that an attack did not take place, and that words like "senkauze", "senmotive" are preferable, if you do not intend to negate it.
That said I'm not sure how widely accepted this dictum is and I've seen it flouted by many an experienced speaker. My own preference is for "senkaŭze" etc, but in most cases (especially where the indicative mood is being used) I doubt "nenial" would be unclear.
ceigered (Profiel tonen) 21 mei 2011 12:01:50
Tommjames, I had completely forgotten about that. So "nenial" would sort of be a "denial" type of word in a way?
Senkaŭze and senmotive seem very useful, the former I'm guessing would also be useful for things with no apparent cause (e.g. why'd the bridge fall down), and the latter for things with cause due to an intent or volition of sorts... Would that be right-ish?
Thanks for that example sentence about the Flughaveno Miland, it helps me put this word's use into some sort of context. It does seem that someone would only use "for every reason" when they're being a bit dramatic, since I can't think of anything that exists for "every reason" (maybe we're heading into some sort of pandeist theological idea about the universe there though!) (the latter sentence though is rather tragic
) 
sudanglo (Profiel tonen) 21 mei 2011 15:00:02