Сообщений: 31
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ceigered (Показать профиль) 5 июня 2011 г., 10:43:42
Ĝardena helicaĵeto?
I can sort of understand the problem.
I think "ventmuelileto" might have to be used in tandem with "ventornimaĵo" since there's clearly a difference between the windmills and the indescribable little things that do crazy stuff in the wind.
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 5 июня 2011 г., 10:50:38
The examples are of the world going round, and vultures circling their prey.
Rotacii seems to mean specifically revolve on an axis.
Rivolui seems to mean a complete full circle rotation.
Turbi means to spin like a child's spinning top.
Turniĝi is very broad in its scope. covering redirection as well as part or full rotation.
Whirl in English carries with it the idea of speed, and sometimes this aspect is primary and the circular motion secondary, as in the cricket ball whirled through the air. But not, of course, in whirlpool, whirlwind, whirling dervish.
Of all, 'giri' seems to me closest to English 'whirl', in circularity terms, though you would have to add idea of speed adverbially, and I grant you that it is not a common word.
In my Longman's dictionary for foreign learners of English, 'whirligi' has two definitions 1. Spinning toy 2. Merry-go round (at a fair)
geo63 (Показать профиль) 5 июня 2011 г., 11:58:27
ceigered:Could we say "garden propellorette" or something to that effect?As I see the problem is that in English this word is connected with wind and mill:
Ĝardena helicaĵeto?
I can sort of understand the problem.
I think "ventmuelileto" might have to be used in tandem with "ventornimaĵo" since there's clearly a difference between the windmills and the indescribable little things that do crazy stuff in the wind.
wind - mill
In Polish the word is different. It is only connected with wind:
wiatrak = wind + er
If I translate English windmill into Polish word for word, I get:
wiatrowy (wind) młyn (mill)
Unfortunatelly this form is not used in Polish.
So anything that rotates on the wind could be called "wiatrak" in Polish. For a Pole (Russian as well) "windmill" might mean more than for an English speaker. Such litte differences are many between different languages - and so arises a language barrier, misunderstanding and so on. I can learn English, but deep inside I am still Polish and I see the world the Polish way, even if I put it into English words. Also the same happens when a foreigner tries to speak Polish with his/her foreign ways. The results sometimes may be very funny or offensive.
sudanglo (Показать профиль) 5 июня 2011 г., 12:12:49
Yes, terms in different languages may occupy different semantic territory, but an Esperanto term doesn't have to have the same application as in Englsh or Polish. It will have its own semantic scope.
geo63 (Показать профиль) 5 июня 2011 г., 12:32:48
sudanglo:I am not sure I understand your point Geo.And for that we are looking for. I do not recomend using these "windmills". I was only clearing my point to ceigered.
Yes, terms in different languages may occupy different semantic territory, but an Esperanto term doesn't have to have the same application as in Englsh or Polish. It will have its own semantic scope.
Esperanto word should include the idea of wind, rotation and ornament (garden also welcome). Or perhaps we all choose a new word:
kirlogigo
and the problem will be closed
ceigered (Показать профиль) 6 июня 2011 г., 5:23:49
geo63 (Показать профиль) 6 июня 2011 г., 5:28:43
ceigered:Oh well, I vote we call them "ĝardenaj giraĵetoj"ĝardenventgiraĵeto and we have a new term.
In Polish we have similar:
kręciołek = giraĵeto
= something you don't know what it is for, but you can happily rotate it by hand - wind will also do... and not related to any kind of a windmill at last. 
erinja (Показать профиль) 6 июня 2011 г., 6:15:06
geo63 (Показать профиль) 6 июня 2011 г., 6:36:22
erinja:ĝardenventgiraĵeto is far too long. In German they often create these very long and precise words but in Esperanto we don't do that. We prefer to pick something less precise and have the word shorter.Then omit "garden-" and "vent-". Giraĵeto is fine. If there would be any ambiguity problem, you can always add some adjective. And short terms are important in everyday, national language (there you pick up short, less precise words - English is a very goog example, that is why it is so hard to master). In Esperanto I would value the clarity more, since it is intended for international use. And Germans do fine with their terms.
ceigered (Показать профиль) 6 июня 2011 г., 8:00:17