הודעות: 33
שפה: English
sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 26 ביוני 2011, 11:22:42
Miland (הצגת פרופיל) 26 ביוני 2011, 11:30:44
geo63:.. Why do you keep writing this? I understood the first time..You wrote different questions the second time. It was reasonable to suppose that you wanted answers giving further clarification. I did not "keep writing" or repeat anything.
geo63 (הצגת פרופיל) 26 ביוני 2011, 14:27:22
Miland:You know, when I write a question, it does not always mean that I need the answer (I can easily find one myself) - I only express doubt in this manner (such a retorical question: to be or not to be, Sein oder Nichtsein, być albo nie być...). But thank you for the answer. It can really be useful for the others, as Ceigered has pointed out.geo63:.. Why do you keep writing this? I understood the first time..You wrote different questions the second time. It was reasonable to suppose that you wanted answers giving further clarification. I did not "keep writing" or repeat anything.
ceigered (הצגת פרופיל) 27 ביוני 2011, 09:51:58
geo63:If ĉu mi prenu/havu X? is asking somebody else for permission or for giving that X to you, then it is very weird way to do this through the first person in imperative mode. That is exactly what I don't agree with.I think my head's broken now but I finally got it - that is a bit weird now that I'm thinking of it as me asking myself
Think about it...
.Tre komplike!
And sudanglo, that's a nice idea - however am I meant to be understanding that as "May I start having/may I have this for a moment?"? It sounds a bit like some guy's going over to someone else in a restaurant and quickly snatching their spoon out of their soup bowl, having a taste of the soup and giving it back
erinja (הצגת פרופיל) 27 ביוני 2011, 10:50:51
So the polite form would not be "Ĉu mi povas -i?"; it would be "Ĉu mi rajtas -i?"
We use "have" for a lot of meanings in English but in Esperanto it's obviously preferable to be specific.
So I'd say that I drank a cup of tea (had tea), ate dessert (had dessert), was involved in an accident (had an accident), etc.
As has already been mentioned "preni" is the obvious choice for asking to take something. "Ĉu mi rajtas preni suĉtubon?" (or "pajlon" if you're in that camp).
It's very context dependent. If you're asking for a waiter for a clean fork, you won't actually be taking the clean fork yourself (picking it up out of a bin). It's more likely that the waiter would go and get it for you, so the Esperanto question I'd ask would be "Pardonu, ĉu vi povus porti al mi puran forkon?"
Even so, I suspect that "Pardonu, ĉu mi rajtas havi puran forkon?" would be understood, or the "ekhavi" variant. I think most people would also easily understand "Pardonu, ĉu mi rajtas ricevi puran forkon?"
I wouldn't personally say "ĉu mi prenu/havu [ion]" as a form of politeness. I would only say it if I were asking for advise. "Should I take a clean fork?" (subtext: or do you think I should just wipe off my dirty one and keep using it?)
ceigered (הצגת פרופיל) 27 ביוני 2011, 12:11:18
erinja:So the polite form would not be "Ĉu mi povas -i?"; it would be "Ĉu mi rajtas -i?"I dunno, "rajti" in there just feels equally as unspecific.
We use "have" for a lot of meanings in English but in Esperanto it's obviously preferable to be specific.
I figure, if they say I can do it, all is good. Asking them if I have the right to do so sounds like I don't give a rats a::* about what they want me to do, I only care about whether I have the right to do it (e.g. I'm allowed to do it even if they don't want me to).
On the flipside, if I ask them if I can, I feel like I'm asking them, "Hey, I'm making you ruler of my universe for a second, you get to choose whether it's possible for me to have/take/read/see/do XYZ, so go ahead".
Thus "Ĉu mi rajtas manĝi tiun ĉi?"
"Nu, jes, vi rajtas."
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"Ĉu mi povas manĝi tiun ĉi"
"Nu, ne, mi volas ŝpari tiun por pli malfrue"
This might be cultural though. For me, a right is something closer to a rule, or a permission, or an essentiality, where as a "can/be able" is something that merely is possible, for a variety of reasons.
At the same time, I reckon some would think "sure you're able to eat it (you physically can do so), but I don't want you to", but I don't know what cultures would do that, if there are indeed any (are there any that literal, or am I just pandering to a non-existent culture in order to appear more neutral?).
I do know some cultures don't necessarily use the "can" idea, I think Japanese uses some unique phrasing, and a different one depending on the content, e.g. things like "will you give me .....".
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Is there a way of saying "Would you mind if I did XYZ?"?
darkweasel (הצגת פרופיל) 27 ביוני 2011, 12:14:35
erinja:As an aside, I wouldn't say "ĉu mi povas havi..." in any case. "povi" means to be able. You need to distinguish in Esperanto between "can" and "may".PMEG disagrees (povi):
Povi montras agon aŭ staton, kiu estas ebla por la subjekto, ĉu pro kapablo, lerteco, forteco, potenco de la subjekto, ĉu pro la cirkonstancoj, ĉu pro rajto aŭ permeso. Nur la kunteksto povas montri la precizan signifon.
sudanglo (הצגת פרופיל) 27 ביוני 2011, 15:27:48
Even in English, 'can I' is often used in situations where it is nothing to do with ability.
Ceiger for 'Would you mind if ..', you could use 'Ĉu tio vin ĝenus se ..'.
Donniedillon (הצגת פרופיל) 27 ביוני 2011, 21:32:08
"When someone says something in the French language they are saying something French. They do not use French because they do not know English, they are using the French because they are expressing something French and not something English. Though French and English often have similar ideas they will never be exactly the same."
This fairly simple idea has profoundly changed the way that I look at language. So, instead of trying to as an English question in Esperanto why not just go with a simple and straight forward Esperanto question?
Bonolu, doni al mi puran forkon. Ĉi tiu forko estas malpura. Dankon.
Please, give me a clean fork. This fork is dirty. Thanks.
This is simple, clear, polite.
geo63 (הצגת פרופיל) 28 ביוני 2011, 07:23:27
Donniedillon:... So, instead of trying to as an English question in Esperanto why not just go with a simple and straight forward Esperanto question?Exactly what I've proposed in the first place. Thanks.
Bonolu, doni al mi puran forkon. Ĉi tiu forko estas malpura. Dankon.
Please, give me a clean fork. This fork is dirty. Thanks.
This is simple, clear, polite.
PS. Comma not needed:
Bonvolu doni X-on al mi.