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Translation help

od angel32163, 5. júla 2011

Príspevky: 23

Jazyk: English

Chainy (Zobraziť profil) 6. júla 2011 15:37:33

Here's an interesting article about 'veka', 'komplika', 'korekta' etc. Ok, so it's written by Sergio Pokrovskij, who has a tendency to write in a rather unpleasant manner at times. But if you can ignore that aspect, he often has some interesting arguments.

I really am tired of Mr. Pokrovskij's constant whining about this and that 'malkleraĵo' or 'stultaĵo' concerning Western European languages! Ok, so he will sometimes criticise something about other languages, too, but in a much more watered-down way. Indeed, he will generally point to the 'kleraĵoj' of Russian and other non-Western European languages. Gets kind of irritating after a while. I don't know why he has to present things like that. The argument according to the system of Esperanto should be strong enough, without the unnecessary criticisms of other languages.

Internaciismo kaj purismo

angel32163 (Zobraziť profil) 6. júla 2011 20:25:51

Thanks everyone, for your input. I'm thinking I'll use "teni" instead of "daŭrigi". But, do they both mean the same thing, or is there a subtle difference? Or is one preferred over another in certain instances?

Miland (Zobraziť profil) 6. júla 2011 20:57:08

angel32163:I'll use "teni" instead of "daŭrigi". But, do they both mean the same thing, or is there a subtle difference? Or is one preferred over another in certain instances?
Daŭrigi usually means to make something continue, so that it is not applied to persons. You might have Ili daŭrigis mian sendormecon, "They maintained my sleeplessness", but in my view that's not as good as the alternatives.

sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 7. júla 2011 9:07:09

I take your point Chainy about ĉi-nokte with a past verb only being interpretable as 'last night' and not 'tonight', but my gut feeling is that ĉi with time expressions tends to point more commonly to a current or forthcoming time, and not to completed time periods which are felt to be distant.

Angel, there is obviously some support for using 'teni' for 'keep' but I think a common Esperanto way of handling English's 'keep somebody X' is with an 'ig' verb.

'She kept me waiting for 2 hours' - 'Ŝi atendigis min 2 horojn'

'Anything, to keep him quiet' - 'kion ajn, por silentigi lin'.

'They kept me awake' - 'ili maldormigis/sendormigis min'

But there will be a variety of translations for 'keep' depending on the particular English expression.

For 'keeps him out of danger', I might say 'gardas lin ekster danĝero'

ceigered (Zobraziť profil) 7. júla 2011 9:51:41

Chainy:I really am tired of Mr. Pokrovskij's constant whining about this and that 'malkleraĵo' or 'stultaĵo' concerning Western European languages!
I really wanna know why there's such a feeling out there though that Western languages are like that malgajo.gif Maybe it's the old "malklaraĵoj = malkleraĵoj"?

Back on the general conversation, re ĉi-nokte, I thought ĉi-nokte simply meant "the night that's nearby" (but in a much more concise format), and that context made it clear. Otherwise, how about "hieraŭa nokte" (or "hieraŭ-nokte" if the former is incorrect grammar)".

sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 7. júla 2011 13:27:03

Every day has two nights, the one ending at the beginning of the day (last night) and the one beginning at the end of the day (tonight).

Which one is 'ĉi-nokte'?

I just had the feeling that by convention ĉi-nokte refers to the forthcoming night (if said in the daytime).

Ĉi-matene could refer to this morning if said in the afternoon, but then there is only one morning in a day.

Ĉi-jare could only be used to refer to the current year, never last year - similarly ĉi-semajne.

Also ĉi-merkrede could not refer to the previous Wednesday, I think. But perhaps I am mistaken about this - perhaps you can say Ĉi-merkrede on a Thursday to refer to the previous day.

ceigered (Zobraziť profil) 8. júla 2011 9:45:29

sudanglo:Every day has two nights, the one ending at the beginning of the day (last night) and the one beginning at the end of the day (tonight).

Which one is 'ĉi-nokte'?
The one that's closest? If it's afternoon, tonight, if it's early morning, yesterday night? Depends though, since for some people it might seem as if everything in the past has been deleted, and thus only things in the future can be called "nearby". *mind broken*

I guess Zamenhoff didn't really ponder much about this sort of matter, probably wasn't surrounded by sci-fi nerds interested in time travel at the time... (and I just remembered that John Titor fellow... Damn, my head hurts again)

Miland (Zobraziť profil) 8. júla 2011 16:36:50

sudanglo:I just had the feeling that by convention ĉi-nokte refers to the forthcoming night (if said in the daytime).
I agree. In the tekstaro there are a couple of examples of ĉi-nokte being associated with a future tense: ĉi-nokte li mortos ponardita ; ĉi-nokte neniu provos forsendi ŝin.

henma (Zobraziť profil) 8. júla 2011 19:57:10

Miland:
sudanglo:I just had the feeling that by convention ĉi-nokte refers to the forthcoming night (if said in the daytime).
I agree. In the tekstaro there are a couple of examples of ĉi-nokte being associated with a future tense: ĉi-nokte li mortos ponardita ; ĉi-nokte neniu provos forsendi ŝin.
I also had the idea that ĉi-nokte = tonight, and, if said during the day, it has a future sense.

But, a couple days ago, somebody, who selected me as lingvo-helpanto in Ana Renkontas, asked me about ĉi-nokte, because, in the third part, Ana says 'Mi ne sufiĉe dormis ĉi-nokte'...

Clearly, she uses ĉi-nokte as 'last night' in this sentence (I think it's impossible to say that you didn't sleep enough in the next night rideto.gif)

It's not easy to explain, but... ĉi is used to show proximity... and, if used with a past tense, ĉi-nokte, ĉi-merkrede, ĉi-matene can be used to refer to the last night, the last Wednesday and the last morning (this one is common, if used during the afternoon... nobody thinks you're talking about the next morning).

Obviously, enough proximity is needed... if you say ĉi-merkrede on a Thursday or Friday, I will assume is the last one... but on a Monday, it clearly refers to the next one. The same for ĉi-nokte... if used in the morning (with a past verb) it refers to the last one... if not, it would refer to the next one.

You need context too.

I hope I didn't confuse everybody...

Amike,

Daniel.

angel32163 (Zobraziť profil) 9. júla 2011 1:32:00

Could you use "hieraŭ nokte"? I seem to recall reading somewhere (can't remember where at the moment) that you can use hieraŭ nokte for last night, hodiaŭ nokte for tonight, and, of course, morgaŭ nokte for tomorrow night.

The tekstaro has several instances of hieraŭ nokte being used, though I had to search 600 lines to find it! lango.gif
But it also had ĉi-nokte, lastnokte, and pasint-nokte examples too. Guess there's more than one way to say it.

Nahor