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Word order of adjectives.

de mateomarteno, 10 juillet 2011

Messages : 30

Langue: English

mateomarteno (Voir le profil) 10 juillet 2011 15:46:18

I'm up to page 73 in my "Esperanto" by D. Richardson. He says both of the following are legal:

1) longa letero
2) letero longa

He doesn't address the other possibilities for multiple adjectives

3) ? longa letero blua
4) longa blua letero
5) letero longa blua

I'm particularly interested in your opinion about 3), as the other two options aren't too interesting.

dankon

Miland (Voir le profil) 10 juillet 2011 16:04:31

Of the three "other possibilities", (3) looks unhelpful, although you might insert a comma between letero and blua, if you want the latter to have an emphasis of its own, marked off from the rest. (4) looks the most straightforward to me. I wouldn't expect to see (5) often, except perhaps in poetry.

darkweasel (Voir le profil) 10 juillet 2011 16:08:36

All of them are completely correct.

Kateno (Voir le profil) 10 juillet 2011 16:24:14

I'm a natural spanish speaker. In spanish there isn't obligatory order for adjetives and substantives, but in my experience, you shall place all adjetives together after or before its substantive, or the sentence will be unpleasent to read.

Demian (Voir le profil) 10 juillet 2011 16:51:33

I love the form letero longa blua!!! more.

To me Vi estas homo bona! is more beautiful and strong a sentence than Vi estas bona homa!

EdRobertson (Voir le profil) 10 juillet 2011 22:18:43

Your phrase 3 is perfectly ok ...

However, generally adjectives precede their nouns unless they are part of an adjectival phrase, e.g.

granda libro verkita de Bertilo Wennergren

Here the adjectival phrase verkita de Bertilo Wennergren would be too clumsy to insert before the noun, so many people would prefer it stylistically when placed after.

Or if the adjective coming afterwards is an afterthought, or describes the noun rather than defines it.

tre malgranda vilagxo historie sensignifa

ceigered (Voir le profil) 11 juillet 2011 05:06:17

Demian:I love the form letero longa blua!!! more.

To me Vi estas homo bona! is more beautiful and strong a sentence than Vi estas bona homa!
The main difference between ADJECTIVE NOUN and NOUN ADJECTIVE is the emphasis changes to the "noun" in NOUN ADJ, and the adjective then clarifies what sort of noun, which is more empirical, and so that probably gives the effect of the meaning being "strengthened" the further you read.

ADJECTIVE NOUN goes from describing precise characteristics to more general ones, so it probably gives the impression that it's less exciting to read since no tension is built up at all.

Generally though I think VSO/VOS (depends on whether the subject or object is more important in the general meaning of a sentence) with NOUN ADJECTIVE order is very effective at getting the most critical information out there first and then further clarifying it with additional information, but that's getting a bit off topic ridulo.gif

But as a result I reckon because of all that, that "longa letero blua" gives the reader a feeling of anarchy, since you're given precise information, then important, basic information, then back to precise information (EdRobertson's idea of it being used as an afterthought is what it feels a bit like when you're reading it laŭ mi).

sudanglo (Voir le profil) 11 juillet 2011 10:23:27

The overwhelming tendency in Esperanto is to put adjectives in front of the noun.

However for various stylistic reasons, they may follow the noun.

In the case of multiple adjectives preceding the noun a certain logic prevails so that some orders are natural, others strange.

You would say 'La longa senhoma Pariza strato', not 'la Pariza longa senhoma strato'.

And with regards to placement of a single adjective, placement with respect to the noun may effectively be limited to the normal order.

So you would say 'la ĉarma junulino invitis min danci', not 'la junulino ĉarma invitis min danci'.

ceigered (Voir le profil) 11 juillet 2011 11:27:03

sudanglo:So you woud say 'la ĉarma junulino invitis min danci', not 'la junulino ĉarma invitis min danci'.
What's the problem with the latter? There doesn't seem to be any opportunity to confuse anything.

darkweasel (Voir le profil) 11 juillet 2011 11:59:29

Guys, don't overcomplicate everything. Adjectives can be placed before or after the noun in any order, but unless that's very awkward they are normally placed before it.
So it's never wrong to do everything like in English.

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