Miland:as [url=http://claudepiron.free.fr/articlesenanglais/europeanorasiatic.htm]Claude Piron[/url]

ERREUR 404 - Document non trouvé

There's a [ sign too much, this is the correct link: url=http://claudepiron.free.fr/articlesenanglais/europeanorasiatic.htm]Esperanto: european or asiatic language?[/url]

darkweasel:There's a [ sign too much../quote]Yes, dankon! I've corrected the original message.

Piron's article is ridiculous.

1) The archeologist scenario is a total fallacy designed to support his claims

2) Correlation does not imply causation. Esperanto does isolate, but hat doesn't mean that it was influenced by Chinese. The intrinsic plane section is therefore null. The Middle and Extrinsic planes are undoubtedly European-influenced.

3) Even if the core of language is universal, that is hardly a factor in its ease. Europeans have a distinct advantage over non-Europeans regarding syntax and phonology. Ergo it is not fair to use it as (EDIT) a world language. I'm all for its use as a trans-European.

razlem:Piron's article is ridiculous.

Time will tell whether I am right about this, but Piron's writings, in my view, will go on being quoted by others. Your own, I suspect, might not have such longevity.

razlem:The archeologist scenario is a total fallacy designed to support his claims

It is a thought experiment. 'Fallacy' refers to a piece of illogical reasoning. But Piron in my view is usually well-argued.

razlem:Correlation does not imply causation. Esperanto does isolate, but hat doesn't mean that it was influenced by Chinese.

Piron does not say that Chinese influenced Esperanto. He says that an archaeologist might find it similar to Chinese in its ability to use isolated forms.

razlem:The intrinsic plane section is therefore null.

Not only is this a non sequitur, but Piron shows how Esperanto is in some ways more isolating than Chinese.

razlem:The Middle and Extrinsic planes are undoubtedly European-influenced.

This does not differentiate Eastern from West European influence, which is an important consideration in Esperanto's suitability as an intenational language.

razlem: Europeans have a distinct advantage over non-Europeans regarding syntax and phonology. Ergo it is not fair to use it as a world language.

Do you know any Esperantists who are not Europeans, who share this view?

Miland:It is a thought experiment. 'Fallacy' refers to a piece of illogical reasoning. But I find that Piron usually well-argued.

It's fueled by his own supposition. It's fundamentally biased.

The probability of a (good) archeo-linguist coming to these conclusions with the information given is very low.

Miland:Piron does not say that Chinese influenced Esperanto. He says that an archaeologist might find it similar to Chinese in its ability to use isolated forms.

Many languages have some degree of isolation. Therefore many languages are similar to Chinese. In other words: coincidence.

Why isn't Chinese easy to learn if so many languages are similar to it? It's the orthography, the phonology, the extrinsic plane that make it difficult for many people.

Miland:Piron shows how Esperanto is in some ways more isolating than Chinese.

Be that as it may, I refer you to my previous answer.

Miland:This does not differentiate Eastern from West European influence, which is an important consideration in Esperanto's suitability as an intenational language.

No linguistic groups outside of Europe were recognized at all, nevermind the European linguistic regions.

Miland:Do you know any Esperantists who are not Europeans, who share this view?

I figured it was common knowledge. An Italian can recognize dozens of cognates in Esperanto, which makes it easier for him compared to the Korean/Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Indonesian/Arab who can recognize none in their native language.

razlem:which makes it easier for him compared to the Korean/Indian/Chinese/Japanese/Indonesian/Arab who can recognize none in their native language.

Really none?
A bit more than a year ago I took a little language guide of Japanese and wrote down words that were similar in Japanese and Esperanto. Not all of these words were in that guide, some are from other sources. I posted these in an IRC channel exactly a year ago (what a coincidence ):

2010-07-23 22:20:37 <darkweasel> mi simple skribos tien ĉi... mi faris ĝin papere do mi devas tajpkopii ĝin
2010-07-23 22:20:53 <darkweasel> Ajia-Azio
2010-07-23 22:20:58 <darkweasel> amerika-Ameriko
2010-07-23 22:21:01 <darkweasel> basu-buso
2010-07-23 22:21:05 <darkweasel> batâ-butero
2010-07-23 22:21:07 <darkweasel> biiru-biero
2010-07-23 22:21:11 <darkweasel> chiimu-teamo
2010-07-23 22:21:21 <darkweasel> demokurashii-demokratio
2010-07-23 22:21:41 <darkweasel> dôru-dolaro
2010-07-23 22:22:00 <darkweasel> firumu-filmo (kiel konservujo de kamerao)
2010-07-23 22:22:07 <darkweasel> furansu-Francujo/Francio
2010-07-23 22:22:12 <darkweasel> garasu-glaso
2010-07-23 22:22:15 <darkweasel> gasu-gaso
2010-07-23 22:22:28 <darkweasel> gurê-griza (nu ne tre granda simileco..)
2010-07-23 22:22:41 <darkweasel> gyarerii-galerio
2010-07-23 22:22:43 <darkweasel> hoteru-hotelo
2010-07-23 22:22:46 <darkweasel> kamera-kamerao
2010-07-23 22:22:57 <darkweasel> ...mi forgesis unu: humoru-humoro
2010-07-23 22:23:10 <darkweasel> kiro--kilo-
2010-07-23 22:23:16 <darkweasel> kohii-kafo
2010-07-23 22:23:27 <darkweasel> konsâto-koncerto
2010-07-23 22:23:31 <darkweasel> kyabin-kabino
2010-07-23 22:23:37 <darkweasel> massâji-masaĝo
2010-07-23 22:23:43 <darkweasel> mêtoru-metro
2010-07-23 22:23:50 <darkweasel> orugasumusu-orgasmo
2010-07-23 22:24:03 <darkweasel> ôsutoriya-Aŭstrujo/Aŭstrio
2010-07-23 22:24:12 <darkweasel> pan-pano [vidu, tio estas neanglaĵo!]
2010-07-23 22:24:18 <darkweasel> rajio-radio
2010-07-23 22:24:23 <darkweasel> resutoran-restoracio
2010-07-23 22:24:28 <darkweasel> supôtsu-sporto
2010-07-23 22:24:36 <darkweasel> sûpu-supo
2010-07-23 22:24:41 <darkweasel> sutêki-steko
2010-07-23 22:24:47 <darkweasel> sutoppu-stop
2010-07-23 22:24:57 <darkweasel> tabako-cigaredo [vi bone scias al kiu radiko tio similas...]
2010-07-23 22:25:03 <darkweasel> takushii-taksio
2010-07-23 22:25:08 <darkweasel> terebi-televidilo
2010-07-23 22:25:12 <darkweasel> uisukii-viskio
2010-07-23 22:25:15 <darkweasel> wain-vino
2010-07-23 22:25:18 <darkweasel> <fino de l' listo>

razlem:The probability of a (good) archeo-linguist coming to these conclusions with the information given is very low.

This is pure speculation.

razlem:coincidence.

I would call the isolation facility in Esperanto a work of genius.

razlem:No linguistic groups outside of Europe were recognized at all

Zamenhof was restricted to the languages he knew. But this has not prevented many people outside Europe learning it.

razlem:I figured it was common knowledge.

It is not. Piron states in a well-known video that meetings in Esperanto enable contributions from an intenational audience that ones in English do not.

This forum, by the way, is for those who wish to learn and use Esperanto. If you don't, you are welcome to leave. You are not welcome to knock the language itself (as distinct from anything written by Piron, or myself), and therefore should not waste time doing so.

Miland:Zamenhof was restricted to the languages he knew.

Hebrew, for example.

darkweasel:

Miland:Zamenhof was restricted to the languages he knew.

Hebrew, for example.

Ja bona punkto!

(Trans: Good one!)

darkweasel:Really none?
A bit more than a year ago I took a little language guide of Japanese and wrote down words that were similar in Japanese and Esperanto. Not all of these words were in that guide, some are from other sources. I posted these in an IRC channel exactly a year ago (what a coincidence ):

All of those are European loanwords.