I thought my post might elicit some comments from qwertz.

Certainly there are Spanish-language radio stations in the US. Possibly French ones down in Louisiana (although I've never been there, so I have no idea). There are likely radio stations here in the US tailored to any of a number of different languages (Hindi, Tagalog, Russian, German, etc.). Languages other than English occupy a niche in the US, and for every niche there is a market somewhere serving that niche.

But my comments were regarding US *mass media* (top 40 radio, broadcast tv, mainstream movies, etc.). Pretty much everything in the mass media here is 100% in English.

So, I can't really argue with any of your points, but some of them may be more applicable to European countries where there are more languages (and dialects) in closer proximity to one another than is true in the US. The US mass media is astoundingly monolingual.

RiotNrrd:I thought my post might elicit some comments from qwertz.

Certainly there are Spanish-language radio stations in the US. Possibly French ones down in Louisiana (although I've never been there, so I have no idea). There are likely radio stations here in the US tailored to any of a number of different languages (Hindi, Tagalog, Russian, German, etc.). Languages other than English occupy a niche in the US, and for every niche there is a market somewhere serving that niche.

But my comments were regarding US *mass media* (top 40 radio, broadcast tv, mainstream movies, etc.). Pretty much everything in the mass media here is 100% in English.

So, I can't really argue with any of your points, but some of them may be more applicable to European countries where there are more languages (and dialects) in closer proximity to one another than is true in the US. The US mass media is astoundingly monolingual.

I don't have precise numbers at hand here, I just to bring up that there's at least two nationwide Spanish-language television channels in the US: Telemundo and Univision, so if they're only broadcasting to a niche, it's an awfully big one.

But about Esperanto itself, I see the main issue as being many people can't wrap their heads around a language not being from an ethnic group or from a certain part of the world. Those who do understand the concept of a constructed language can only think of Klingon or Tolkein's languages, and learning them is seen as insane, almost obsessive fandom.

Once you've gotten past stigma, you can actually discuss Esperanto without being seen as overly-eccentric and having all of your arguments shut out. Then people can actually start to consider the idea. (I have the feeling this was on some other Lernu thread but I don't want to trudge through all the duplicates in searches to look for it.) And I do think, despite the stereotype of The Big Ugly American who's ignorant of other cultures, there would be more Americans who would be interested in Esperanto.

etala:Those who do understand the concept of a constructed language can only think of Klingon or Tolkein's languages, and learning them is seen as insane, almost obsessive fandom.
[..]

And I do think, despite the stereotype of The Big Ugly American who's ignorant of other cultures, there would be more Americans who would be interested in Esperanto.

I agree, and with regards to the stereotype american, I think that "Big Ugly American" is more the loud-mouth guys who make media for their insensitive comments/actions/etc. It's a pity average person in society doesn't get a well-rounded impartial mention in media either. We're either all evil or all perfect, and neither those mentalities are good for us .

As for excessive fandom, what I find excessive is not speaking klingon (although that is pretty crazy effort to achieve that), but when people treat the relationships described in things like OC/Gossip Girl (and I'm guessing Skins, but I can only go on what I hear people saying since I haven't seen them) etc as if they're actual relationships and gossip about them... Now that's con-fusing reality and fiction together taken to the next step .

Not that I mind. Just, if you fit into that category, please don't treat Sci-fi nerds like dirt since your just as "bad"

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RE English language, is it just me or do English speakers tend to be obsessed with having an "English version" of everything except foreign films (where there seems to be a greater division between subs and dubs, due to how unnatural dubs are vs how annoying subs are)?

razlem:

qwertz:I believe, that should be at least different in the South of the U.S.. Spanish songs should be popular there, too. And what about the Mardi Gras events?

You have a lot to learn about the US...

There aren't many French songs sung in New Orleans at all. A lot of it is in a Cajun English dialect, which we can (for the most part) understand.

Sorry, I haven't to do anything. ( Ĉiuj Ni Amegas Usonon )

And who is "we"? The local community around you? You yourself?

qwertz:And who is "we"? The local community around you? You yourself?

Usonanoj in general, judging by his usage of the word "US" just before

ceigered:

qwertz:And who is "we"? The local community around you? You yourself?

Usonanoj in general, judging by his usage of the word "US" just before

I dislike making personal opinions an generalisated one. It can be an indirect offence to other people. Or more in detail, its an attempt to enforce other folks to give an statement. Seems to be an self-positioning intention behind: "My opinion is the general ones".

In the UK Ceiger, the normal practice when showing foreign films on television is to leave the original soundtrack untouched and to put up English subtitles.

This contrasts heavily with the French practice where practically every imported progamme is dubbed - and very skilfully too.

Neologisms in Esperanto have no connection with the fundamental structure (kunmeto de senŝangaj elementoj ink. gramatikon kiu estas ankaŭ simpla kunmeto) so they are 'hors de question' when it comes to assessing likely irregularities in Esperanto, and the admission of new roots into the language was allowed for from the beginning.

It is the all pervasive universality of combinatorial aspect of the structure of Esperanto that makes any deviation from the fundamental mechanism of the language totally improbable, irrespective of the number of grammar nazis.

In the face of this universal consistency there would appear to be no mechanism for the vagaries of grammar and formation that have accumulated historically in the national languages.

In any case, even under the fina venko the world is not going to abandon their emotional attachment to the various national languages. And there is no good reason to suppose the emergence of a class of illiterate speakers of Esperanto.

The Fina Venko means the widespread use of Esperanto for international communication, and a relatively small section of the population of the world will be using it on a regular basis.

And even if there is a whole army of globe-trotting tourists using Esperanto, their usage (if different from the norms) is not going to define Esperanto - in much the same way that the usage of today's eternaj komencantoj does not influence the language.

Esperanto cannot be assessed just like any other language. It's purpose. its history and its origin put it in a different class.

sudanglo:Esperanto cannot be assessed just like any other language. It's purpose. its history and its origin put it in a different class.

Ah! I like the sound of that. It deserves to become a quotation.

sudanglo:
Esperanto cannot be assessed just like any other language. It's purpose. its history and its origin put it in a different class.

It can! And I give a f::* at this "movement" history.

sudanglo:In any case, even under the fina venko the world is not going to abandon their emotional attachment to the various national languages. And there is no good reason to suppose the emergence of a class of illiterate speakers of Esperanto.

They don't need to be illiterate to stuff it up. Just not as dedicated nor emotionally attached to Esperanto as say you would be. Even then, why do you suppose illiterate Esperanto speakers couldn't exist? We already have "illiterate Esperanto speakers" called "eternaj komencantoj". Sure, they can continue to learn the language to a point where there is nary an error in their Esperanto, but it's obviously not instantaneous.

The Fina Venko means the widespread use of Esperanto for international communication, and a relatively small section of the population of the world will be using it on a regular basis.

Even more reason for uncontrollable and perhaps irregular changes to occur, if there's a large amount of "occasional" users, who for whatever reason like national language influence might start using things where they aren't meant to, and thus making the regular word building system rather pointless when applied to their speech (e.g. imagine non-dedicated English speakers using "-ita" instead of -ata/ota/anta/inta/onta. And what about the amount of people out there with heavy accents that can barely pronounce a foreign language like the way natives do?)

And even if there is a whole army of globe-trotting tourists using Esperanto, their usage (if different from the norms) is not going to define Esperanto - in much the same way that the usage of today's eternaj komencantoj does not influence the language.

That's because there's enough dedicated, experienced users like yourself who can correct them and manage the numbers, and the eternaj komencantoj aren't a particularly proactive group (thus why they're eternaj). On a larger global scale at a level where Esperanto is able to stay safely in the foreground of international life without just being a fad, you'll have more people who are active users but also users of a broken form of the language, most likely very confident people who don't use Esperanto because they're necessarily interested in it or languages, but because they are just following the trends, or required to. Because of the lack of dedication/caring and disinterest combined with self-confidence, it's not impossible for that to develop into a bread of speakers Esperanto's community has never been in contact wiht before (at least not in great quantities, and some who we have come in contact with just go make their own language, but if Esperanto "finvenkos", then the whole "my own espernatido" idea will be rather pointless in comparison to now).

Effectively, Esperanto's "gravity" due to its larger size would draw "dissidents" and those wanting to modify Esperanto back into Esperanto, unlike now where there's plenty of room to "kick them out".

Also remember that a "finvenka" styled success would also be handing Esperanto over to those who are running this "international English" show whose subtle influence you don't like that much, and that might result in changes to Esperanto that aren't necessarily agreeable.

Esperanto cannot be assessed just like any other language. It's purpose. its history and its origin put it in a different class.

It's still a language, dammit. Where it has common features with other languages, it can be compared to other languages.

And remember - the most common feature between Esperanto and other languages are HUMANS. Can we REALISTICALLY say that humans will not change Esperanto in ways that we might not want? (I honestly don't care how they change it though, irregular or not. I personally think that a little irregularity wouldn't hurt the language).

Humans made "national" languages. (a) Human(s) made Esperanto. Each language has its own unique features.
And Esperanto grammatically and vocabulary wise is inspired from "natural" languages, so any theoretical problems in natural languages can theoretically occur in Esperanto too given the right circumstances.

Since we DON'T know the future, it's wiser to be prepared for anything, and not set ourselves up on a foundation that might not be suitable later down the track, lest our foundation fail on us.