sudanglo:But what we do have in the Esperanto community, Ceiger, is a whole number of komencantoj (a very significant proportion of the speakers) whose Esperanto may not strictly conform to the standard rules of Esperanto.

But in no way, for example, has this led to the view that in correct Esperanto you may leave off the accusative for a direct object.

In any national language, if some 50% of the speakers habitually deviated from a 'correct' form, it would be difficult to argue that their usage was actually incorrect.

The fact that Esperanto is a second language for most and a constructed language with simple and all-pervasive regularities really does make it different.

That's because we've got a very large amount of "spertuloj" in Esperanto's very small community that help prevent "incorrect usage" from gaining currency.

Unless some sort of rigid system was put in place in education facilities across the world, I doubt we can continue to have such a high ratio of spertuloj to non-spertuloj in the future (sure, we don't have MORE spertuloj than normal speakers even now, but we have a comparatively large amount).

And if 50% speakers spoke a different form of the language, depending on how dispersed they are in the community, that generally leads to a break up in the language, or a big divide between proper and colloquial usage. In Esperanto's case, it lead to a break up between Esperanto and every Esperantido that's existed, since the Esperanto community tends to "kick people out" based on their willingness to change and modify the language (I'll happily say that is rather unique... There's not that many examples throughout history where use of language has been grounds to "exile" someone... Or at least most of the time the reports seem to be from around Germanic europe ).

That "kick out" function only works, just like at a nightclub, if there's enough "bouncers" to kick out the "rowdy patrons". The less effective the bouncers are, the more trouble-makers can slip in under the radar, provided they don't make so much trouble that even the understaffed bouncers can still spot them out from the crowd. Eventually, because there's so many undetected bogies in the nightclub for so long, things start to degrade a bit until eventually it's no longer got the same sterling reputation as before.

In Esperanto's case, we thus might not want to pin its sterling reputation on things that "rowdy patrons" might mess around with when the "bouncers (spertuloj)" find themselves understaffed.

===

Please not I don't go clubbing, so I might have a more dramatic view of nightclubs

My dear Ceiger, is the word 'recalcitrant' in your vocabulary?

ceigered:
And if 50% speakers spoke a different form of the language, depending on how dispersed they are in the community, that generally leads to a break up in the language, or a big divide between proper and colloquial usage. In Esperanto's case, it lead to a break up between Esperanto and every Esperantido that's existed, since the Esperanto community tends to "kick people out" based on their willingness to change and modify the language

The movadulojn try to kick out trouble makers. But they only can control the inside of their Movado-styled circles. I'm in doubt, that that movadulojn will be capable to stop i.e. Espo-Hiphopulojn (=komunuloj) to publish affronts or critique lyrics against i.e. Espo-patriotism. Its the competetive nature of Rap/Hip Hop to fight - often each other. Especially Rap lyrics can contain a lot of affronts.

ceigered:
(I'll happily say that is rather unique... There's not that many examples throughout history where use of language has been grounds to "exile" someone... Or at least most of the time the reports seem to be from around Germanic europe ).

Okay, but there are also happend some matters until the "near past" Australia, isn't?

sudanglo:My dear Ceiger, is the word 'recalcitrant' in your vocabulary?

Its getting ridiculous, movadisto. Most of matters around your movadocirkelo are out of your control. That's excactly the situation why the FaE lyrics were written and sung. FaE adresses folks like you.

Fek' al Esperanto

hiphopesperanto.blogspot.com

ceigered:They could just be curious, mislead individuals. Anyway, I understand your pains, but the reason why this mystical, somewhat twisted view of Americans and American culture exists is because of how isolated Americans can be, vs. how much pop-culture is spat out from America, meaning everyone who isn't american only really knows the "America" that is shown in politics, sensationalist media, hollywood or Michael Moore documentaries (which are probably taken differently by non-americans).

That mystical view of Americans actually comes from the government and mass media exploiting them continually, and from the government's soft diplomacy projects. Even Margaret Thatcher's love of the american people amounted to nothing short of exploitation. When Obama or Bush uses the term "The American People", its a form of exploitation.

Actually those rednecks are not hidden at all. They dominate society in some areas. That claptrap was not unlike Scots in "Glesga" with their Patter. Here is a clip from Scottish Exploitation film:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0PDalxB1dg

That film has it all. The father even has a real chiv scar on his face.

I still think americans should be more hidden. I am generally hidden in the USA from other Americans, but was exploited by the internet. Germany is more hidden. Germany doesnt even like to allow the Google van to photograph their streets. That too really is a form of exploitation, street exploitation by google. We are moving toward this era where everything is exploited. I am starting to get tired of it.

I am sick of foreigners and their views of the USA and money. There are plenty of blond blue eyed people in the USA who eat at soup kitchens, etc. All kinds of stupid stereotypes from overseas that people imagine. Ireland has more religious nuts than the USA. Even Canadians have almost no concept of the USA.

novmik:
I still think americans should be more hidden. I am generally hidden in the USA from other Americans, but was exploited by the internet. Germany is more hidden. Germany doesnt even like to allow the Google van to photograph their streets. That too really is a form of exploitation, street exploitation by google. We are moving toward this era where everything is exploited. I am starting to get tired of it.

Facebook also developed an software tool to index pictures means a tool which can compare Facebook profile photos with faces at pictures other FB members made and published at FB.

Regarding Google Street View in Europe. Be sure that Google will get kontraŭforto of European institutions which hopefully could push back to U.S. privacy laws. That still happened to Microsoft and Facebook (without push-back effect, but..). EU area still holds no shoreless "Business first, charity/privacy last in the back of the bus" philosophy like obviously in the U.S. and other areas.

Btw. how many digital identities(i.e. picture of private flickr accounts) are stolen at the Internet?

qwertz:

novmik:
I still think americans should be more hidden. I am generally hidden in the USA from other Americans, but was exploited by the internet. Germany is more hidden. Germany doesnt even like to allow the Google van to photograph their streets. That too really is a form of exploitation, street exploitation by google. We are moving toward this era where everything is exploited. I am starting to get tired of it.

Facebook also developed an software tool to index pictures means a tool which can compare Facebook profile photos with faces at pictures other FB members made and published at FB.

Regarding Google Street View in Europe. Be sure that Google will get kontraŭforto of European institutions which hopefully could push back to U.S. privacy laws. That still happened to Microsoft and Facebook (without push-back effect, but..). EU area still holds no shoreless "Business first, charity/privacy last in the back of the bus" philosophy like obviously in the U.S. and other areas.

Europe yet invades privacy by State rather than business. Though there is some argument whether or not State is separate from Mercantilism. I think its not. Lets consider Microdrone GMBH (GmbH is the German acronym for basically "Inc" in English: incorporated).

These microdrones are possibly already in use in Great Britain by the Bobbies?[url= http://www.microdrones.com/index-en.php] http://www.microdrones.com/index-en.php[/url]

novmik:
Europe yet invades privacy by State rather than business. Though there is some argument whether or not State is separate from Mercantilism. I think its not. Lets consider Microdrone GMBH (GmbH is the German acronym for basically "Inc" in English: incorporated).

They are even tested in Germany. I heard that they were tested(in German) in some German states. Primarly to organize actions against very flexible and aggressive Black Bloc activities(i.e. that kind of at 01:20 min). Well, yes, the technology excists and democracy principles have to control the use. That's everytime an issue.

qwertz:

novmik:
Europe yet invades privacy by State rather than business. Though there is some argument whether or not State is separate from Mercantilism. I think its not. Lets consider Microdrone GMBH (GmbH is the German acronym for basically "Inc" in English: incorporated).

They are even tested in Germany. I heard that they were tested(in German) in some German states. Primarly to organize actions against very flexible and aggressive Black Bloc activities(i.e. that kind of at 01:20 min). Well, yes, the technology excists and democracy principles have to control the use. That's everytime an issue.

I am no fan of the G8 either, and since these Black Bloc fellows are the only ones protesting this illegal international meeting known as G8, I would have to side with the black bloc in most cases. Most of their actions make logical sense. They burn a car, but the government makes a war for oil that kills civilians. They break a shop window, but the government has helicopters that strafe innocent reporters such as in the Wikileaks video.

I have been in some of these demos, like the Prague Demo against the IMF. I can tell you, most of the violence really comes from provocation by the authorities. Like the DEMO was to stop the IMF from having a meeting and going to the Opera. We sat in front of a public bus that was filled with IMF guys at night. Essentially just to block its path, but the men inside the bus were very sinister! I still remember the sneering grin of one of the business suit wearing bastards. Then the bus actually tried to run some people over! After that someone threw a rock at the bus window. But the rock was not thrown until the bus attempted to run over people!

jean-luc:

ceigered:There's not that many examples throughout history where use of language has been grounds to "exile" someone...

I don't know what you mean exactly by exile, but I can guarantee you that, in french schools, you'd better not to mess about with french... And even outside school, if you want to be understood and not be laughed at, you should stick to regular french and not invent one of your own.

What about French Argot, like in Jean Genet novels?

jean-luc:

novmik:
What about French Argot, like in Jean Genet novels?

The case is actually more complex than I've described in my previous message. By example, the spoken french is not exactly the same in the south-west than in the north (not to speak about other francophone countries). Because both the language and its history are much more complex than the for esperanto.

But the french you learn in school is the same everywhere, and if you try to adapt it to your taste, you're going to have bad time with your teacher

The same if you speak "argot" or with a bad command of french during a job interview.

The case of literature is a bit different. You may be really creative with the language. But you can do that only if you have already a really good command of the language.

Btw, I noticed with french (in France) the same evolution than with international english: french is more and more homogeneous.

Obviously French is spoken differently everywhere, from Haiti to Quebec to Belgium, I am sure there are variations.

Is it true that the French have added a lot of Frenchified words to Esperanto that Zamenhof didn't include originally? If so, does the French support for Esperanto coincide with French support for the IMF, for instance, since one of the prime languages of the IMF is french, as they go bus touring around 3rd world water sources that they want to impose a tax on?