EdRobertson:If you want to find a group of tourists with an above-average proportion of cringeingly ignorant boors, look no further than the British. If there's someone screaming "OYNIKKIN!" repeatedly at the top of their voice, to a polite French barman saying "I'm sorry, sir, I don't understand what you mean", in perfect English, but not grasping the fact that the shreiks emanating from the boor concerned are how he always pronounces "Heineken", then you can guess where he is from, and in my case find refuge in adorning my less than C2 French with a faked slight German accent in order to disclaim all responsibility. I think the French have to put up with a lot, their country being so easy for the British to get to. Sorry if the rest of you get the flak.

Yep... I soon learned the alternative... Every time we get to a touristic place we asked for somebody who speaks Spanish... They usually have somebody, and they treated us very well

The guy at the subway was a bit extreme... I have to say.

Back to the topic... I also think that attacking English we won't make any progress (and it's very difficult for me, given the fact that I do speak English voluntarily and use it as an international language several days a week... the team I work with has people from Chile, Colombia, Serbia, India, China, and had some people from Russia, I don't think they can be convinced to learn Esperanto, as several of them live in New York, so English for them is vital )

Attacking any language will only make us look bad. We need to make Esperanto more interesting...

The fact that Esperanto is growing on the internet is good. More people has heard of Esperanto now, than when I just met this language (some 20 years ago). In some cases, I have to admit, they already have a bias against it, though.

It would be great to have a couple of songs that become popular... And let people think that this language is from some exotic place... And we can include it in universities as an optional language course.

Amike,

Daniel.

Gentlemen, are you not missing the point?

By ridiculing the most egregious examples of poor English, are we not just pointing out the elephant in the room. Namely that a national language as an international language for everybody is a poor choice.

If Esperantists aquired a reputation about being bolshie about 'International English' in its most irritating manifestations, that might not be a bad thing.

Obviously one would be selective in ones targets. Attacking the struggling economic migrant is perhaps not fair play. But mocking those who use the argument that the world already has an international language in English, by pointing out the realities of such usage, seems fair game.

sudanglo:.. mocking those who use the argument that the world already has an international language in English, by pointing out the realities of such usage, seems fair game.

I wouldn't, if I were you, but if you do go ahead, please let us know how you got on.

sudanglo:
Obviously one would be selective in ones targets. Attacking the struggling economic migrant is perhaps not fair play. But mocking those who use the argument that the world already has an international language in English, by pointing out the realities of such usage, seems fair game.

Here's an idea: Instead of using words like "targets", "attack", and "mock", offer help to those who are struggling, regardless of ethnic or economic group. What's stopping you from creating an English/Esperanto tutor program in your area?

Miland, are we supposed to just meekly allow the world to adopt Globish without a word of protest.

I'm really getting fed up with not being able to make myself understood in my own country in cafés, shops, and places of leisure, or on the phone to call centres.

And in the sensitive situation of discussing a health problem, I am faced in my local surgery with two out of the three doctors not being native speakers - at least that was the situation when I last went.

Ed, English is hard to acquire at a level that is suitable for dealing with native speakers of English. That's the point.

Rather than stressing the ease with which Esperanto can be acquired, perhaps it's time to show the other side of the coin, emphasizing how difficult it is to learn national languages.

Diablo:Personally, I would also like to see more addictive reading in the language, such as mangas.

Yes! It's very hard to find comics and manga in Esperanto. I have a very small collection here, but this medium is so good for communication that there should be more. I have looked into translating my first comic book into EO having a small quantity available through the Japan libroservo, too, there's a little support for that.

sudanglo:Miland, are we supposed to just meekly allow the world to adopt Globish without a word of protest.

...

Ed, English is hard to acquire at a level that is suitable for dealing with native speakers of English. That's the point.

Rather than stressing the ease with which Esperanto can be acquired, perhaps it's time to show the other side of the coin, emphasizing how difficult it is to learn national languages.

Let me insert a note of realism. We are in no position to allow or disallow anything, still less something as enormous as the widespread adoption of a form of English as a lingua franca, after it has happened at that. To suggest we can or should just makes us look ridiculous, like an idiot screaming at the wind, or King Knut ordering the tide not to come in.

By comparison with English or Globish, Scottish Gaelic has a mere 60000 native speakers, a couple of orders of magnitude more than Esperanto has WORLDWIDE. We have Gaelic-only-medium schools where non-native speakers queue up to send their children to be immersed in the language, a Gaelic language TV channel, regular programmes on the main terrestrial channels, translations of key government documents in it, Gaelic translators in the Scottish parliament ... need I go on? ... and yet its proponents would never dream of challenging the hegemony of English in Scotland, let alone the world. Why? Because people would LAUGH.

Esperanto has NEVER achieved anything like the "success" of Scottish Gaelic, and realistically there aren't any likely scenarios in which that situation is going to change very much.

However, Esperanto is useful, and fun, for those of us who have taken the not inconsiderable trouble to learn the language. And it would be even more useful, and even more fun, if a few more people spoke it.

But even that isn't going to happen unless we start behaving like NORMAL people and get real. Instead of saying stuff like "English-language culture is imperialist" or "we should all learn a language made up by this Polish guy over 100 years ago", we should tell people how we "went to Slovakia (or Cuba, or Vietnam, or Denmark, or Bosnia etc) for a week and there were a dozen of us round the table, all from different countries, and we understood everybody else's jokes and stories perfectly ... it was a real laugh ... doing it again 2 or 3 times next year ... met this cute Ukrainian (or Lithuanian, or Armenian, or Brazilian etc) ...". You get the picture.

Let's try crawling first, before we think about walking or running.

sudanglo:Miland, are we supposed to just meekly allow the world to adopt Globish without a word of protest.

You can set an example by using the language well, and that may help learners to improve their English. My guess is that they may even ask you for help if you're nice to them, whereas if you get annoyed at them, there might not be such a happy outcome.

3rdblade:

Diablo:Personally, I would also like to see more addictive reading in the language, such as mangas.

Yes! It's very hard to find comics and manga in Esperanto. I have a very small collection here, but this medium is so good for communication that there should be more. I have looked into translating my first comic book into EO having a small quantity available through the Japan libroservo, too, there's a little support for that.

there are some translated comics on lernu user "jeckle"'s blog that were translated by users of the german-language forum

EdRobertson:Let me insert a note of realism. We are in no position to allow or disallow anything, still less something as enormous as the widespread adoption of a form of English as a lingua franca, after it has happened at that. To suggest we can or should just makes us look ridiculous, like an idiot screaming at the wind, or King Knut ordering the tide not to come in.

By comparison with English or Globish, Scottish Gaelic has a mere 60000 native speakers, a couple of orders of magnitude more than Esperanto has WORLDWIDE. We have Gaelic-only-medium schools where non-native speakers queue up to send their children to be immersed in the language, a Gaelic language TV channel, regular programmes on the main terrestrial channels, translations of key government documents in it, Gaelic translators in the Scottish parliament ... need I go on? ... and yet its proponents would never dream of challenging the hegemony of English in Scotland, let alone the world. Why? Because people would LAUGH.

Esperanto has NEVER achieved anything like the "success" of Scottish Gaelic, and realistically there aren't any likely scenarios in which that situation is going to change very much.

However, Esperanto is useful, and fun, for those of us who have taken the not inconsiderable trouble to learn the language. And it would be even more useful, and even more fun, if a few more people spoke it.

But even that isn't going to happen unless we start behaving like NORMAL people and get real. Instead of saying stuff like "English-language culture is imperialist" or "we should all learn a language made up by this Polish guy over 100 years ago", we should tell people how we "went to Slovakia (or Cuba, or Vietnam, or Denmark, or Bosnia etc) for a week and there were a dozen of us round the table, all from different countries, and we understood everybody else's jokes and stories perfectly ... it was a real laugh ... doing it again 2 or 3 times next year ... met this cute Ukrainian (or Lithuanian, or Armenian, or Brazilian etc) ...". You get the picture.

Let's try crawling first, before we think about walking or running.

@EdRobertson: A very sensible approach. Any other dreamy talk about some 'grand' role for Esperanto is just embarrassing. People who like the language should just try to learn it well and be happy about real things in the present.

The main reason why people laugh about Esperanto is that anything less than worldwide acceptance is seen as a failure! Esperantists themselves are to blame for this and it's utterly mad.

Just one thing, though, Ed - I wouldn't be so pesismistic about the 'likely scenarios' for the growth of Esperanto. We have no idea about this really - just have to see how it goes.