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DID U DO ANY EFFORT??

de 313, 2011-julio-13

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EdRobertson (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-18 17:22:48

ceigered:(My biggest problem with comparing EO with other langauges is that size really means nothing. Manchu has 60 speakers, barely any use now in China and even Manchurian culture has been steamrolled by Han culture, so does that mean Manchu's now just a language project? Rather nowadays it is BOTH a language and project)
I don't know about the Manchu situation, but I do know about Batsbi, a Nakh-Daghestanian language which is still spoken by about 300 people in one village, Zemo Alvani in Georgia (not the one in the USA).

It once was a real language, but just like a person growing old, bits stop working the fewer people speak a language. Batsbi is only spoken by old people. Children no longer learn the language. By 2050 it will have died out. It preserves old phonological forms such as intervocalic dentals in words where they have long since been lost by its closest relatives, Chechen and Ingush, but its vocabulary is now under constant erosion from Georgian, just as in previous centuries it was from Russian, Turkic and Persian. Most of its speakers are functionally bilingual with Georgian, if not trilingual with Russian too, and probably some of them with other languages on top of that. If they follow the pattern of speakers of other endangered and not-so-endangered Caucasian languages, they will code switch when talking about modern subjects, or even change languages altogether.

It's a shame, but Batsbi is f---ed.

razlem (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-18 18:59:31

The citation on Wikipedia showing the number of Interlingua speakers ("a few hundred") is more than a decade old and before the internet revolution.

Additionally,this appears to be an active Interlingua site.

Now, for some arithmetic:
There are approximately 23,000 total people following Esperanto pages on Facebook (adjusted for those who may be following more than one Esperanto page and those who speak the language but don't follow a page).

For Interlingua, the number is approximately 1,000, accounting for the same variables.

Esperanto:Interlingua = 23:1

If there are (generously) 1 million fluent Esperanto speakers, then there must be at least 43,000 fluent Interlingua speakers, well over the "few hundred" that the Wikipedia source claims.

EdRobertson (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-18 22:14:38

razlem:Now, for some arithmetic:
There are approximately 23,000 total people following Esperanto pages on Facebook (adjusted for those who may be following more than one Esperanto page and those who speak the language but don't follow a page).

For Interlingua, the number is approximately 1,000, accounting for the same variables.

Esperanto:Interlingua = 23:1

If there are (generously) 1 million fluent Esperanto speakers, then there must be at least 43,000 fluent Interlingua speakers, well over the "few hundred" that the Wikipedia source claims.
There are no way 1 million fluent currently active Esperanto speakers. The figure I gave was 30000. I challenge anyone to dispute this figure in either direction, giving evidence. The largest following of an Esperanto page is nearly 9000. Assuming that some Esperanto "speakers" don't follow that page, but other less popular pages gives us, say, 18000 Esperanto "speakers" on Facebook. Assuming Esperanto speakers are on Facebook in similar proportions to the average person on the planet, and given Esperanto's worldwide penetration, there is no reason not to believe that this is the case, we really ought to expect that merely 4500 of the "likers" of Esperanto pages are fluent speakers, the other 25500 fluent speakers aren't on FB, and the other 13500 page-likers are neither fluent nor currently active.

If we make similar assumptions about the 283 people who like the most popular Interlingua page, we get 141.5 fluent currently active Interlingua speakers on Facebook, and about 750 in the world. However, your average Interlingua speaker is more likely than an Espie to be a westerner with internet access, and is more likely to proselytise his/her interlinguaism, than the (I rejoice in saying so) more "normal" Espo speaker, so I think we're back down closer to my figure of 200 speakers of Interlingua again.

If you think I'm wrong, produce them.

razlem (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-18 22:59:34

There are more than one Interlingua Page:
http://www.facebook.com/interlingua.IALA
http://www.facebook.com/interlingua
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Interlingua/44406727...
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Interlingua/10817710...
and more, totaling well over 1000 followers, though I adjusted my figures for variables specified earlier. There are also more than a few Esperanto pages, totaling over 23,000, but also adjusted for the variables.

The ratio is indicative of the languages' presence on Facebook. Because Facebook has over 750 million active accounts, the ratio is a reliable reflection of those with access to Esperanto and Interlingua resources.

Esperanto's presence is 23,000. Interlingua's presence is 1,000. If there are 30,000 fluent Esperanto speakers, then, logically, there are likely to be 1,304 fluent Interlingua speakers.

23:1 = 30,000:1304

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-19 10:24:16

sudanglo:Ed is quite right, Ceiger, and we've been over this ground before.

If you compare the number of speakers of a language that is dying out, with the number of speakers of an artificial language that is trying to grow, then although the numbers may be equally small, you are not comparing like with like.
Then Esperanto is NOT a language, compared to English then.

Problem solved, let's not bother thinking about it.

Seriously, you can't just ignore the existence of other languages because it doesn't agree with an Esperanto-centric bias. That's one thing that makes me quite annoyed at some members of the Esperanto movement. Now, what about people like me who don't speak Esperanto but have come in contact with this sort of attitude? What are they going to think?

Probably "Esperanto's just full of hypocritical propaganda".

It's not fair on Esperanto to assume people will see Esperanto in the same sparkly wonderful light that we do. That's the problem, we can't connect effectively with people outside of the Esperanto community. It's like trying to convert a self-aware atheist to a religion.

EdRobertson:The figure I gave was 30000
How can we then say that Esperanto is somehow more a language than its "language project" competitors? The difference between 30000 and 1000 200 π is minimal when you're comparing it to an affective IAL, which needs to be spoken by about 1000000000 to compare it to English.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-19 10:42:07

EdRobertson:proselytise
Stepping back el la bataleto for a second, thank you for teaching me a very cool word haha.

EdRobertson:It's a shame, but Batsbi is f---ed.
Not really. It could always be brought back to life Cornish-style. It could be thought of as still living, within another language (circle of life style), or in the form of its more popular cousins if it has any.

The potential will always exist, as it does for any language.

(Bringing this down to our little example of Interlingua, as far as I'm concerned 200-1000 speakers is alive, and the potential exists for expansion. Until something major happens, like official acceptance, or mass adoption, Esperanto might as well have 1000 speakers/writers.)

(stuff deleted because tl;drness)

Miland:With other languages like Ido or Interlingua, I would ask the question: has a stage comparable to the Unua Libro been reached, and if so, when? I leave these questions to others.
Can't speak for Ido. But for Interlingua there's Panorama (like Monato I guess, but modern Monato editions are more decentralised from the core EO movement from what I can see), and there's a literature section on the Interlingua website.

Interlingua publications, lessons etc tend to be entirely written in Interlingua often though, and it seems to be in contemporary Interlingua literary tradition (at least on the net) the standard to write in Interlingua without translation.

(see next post, deleting stuff from this post since it's too big for the sake of legibility).

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-19 10:52:23

Miland:has a stage comparable to the Unua Libro been reached, and if so, when? I leave these questions to others.
Perhaps this is something identifiable with the sort of community self-awareness that Esperanto gained with the Unua Libro:

http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/interlingua-...

Interlingua e su promotion durante 50 annos

I don't believe there's an English translation... Not that most of us would need it though.

And this part of the wikipedia page recounts that it has been used practically before, principally in ways related to the sciences.

Like the sorts of tragedies Esperanto has experienced many a time, Interlingua seems to have actually been used a lot throughout its history, in various international organisations, schools etc. Yet very little information about that remains, with the fad having ended or become dormant.

Perhaps all IALs are destined (if they survive) to experience this sort of thing on their journey to international language nirvana? lango.gif

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-19 10:57:34

I have to disagree Ed.

I do think that Esperanto propaganda concentrates far to much on 'la facileco' of Esperanto without saying enough about the indequacies of English (or any other national language) to be the international language.

Esperanto is different - not just another language. It's purpose-built for its role.

Rather than sweeping Esperanto's 'artificiality' under the carpet we should emphasize it as a plus feature.

As regards who should learn Esperanto - the answer surely is that it is for everybody who might find it useful - not just the preserve of liberal lefties.

So those whose political or societal views might not be harmonious with those you hold should also be welcome. That is real tolerance.

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-19 11:02:42

sudanglo:I have to disagree Ed.

I do think that Esperanto propaganda concentrates far to much on 'la facileco' of Esperanto without saying enough about the indequacies of English (or any other national language) to be the international language.
I disagree, in my early days of coming in contact with this language, I read a lot about how inadequate natural languages are, so much so that now I don't care when such a line since it's like "yeah, heard that before a million times, it's just a language, it's not like a bit of difficulty is gonna kill anyone".

Also, according to social darwinism, Esperanto could be a bit negative due to its ease, since it doesn't promote an environment where effort and mental ability is required as much as some might argue natural languages have (I'd debate that too, since I'm not a social darwinist).
Rather than sweeping Esperanto's 'artificiality' under the carpet we should emphasize it as a plus feature.
Totally agree. Artificiality is often treated with ignorance and disdain in this world that's obsessed with things being all natural/organic/original etc.

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2011-julio-19 11:18:28

Ceiger, you are a very bad boy.

Don't you know that Interlinguidge (or whatever you call it) is evil, the product of the devil.

And anyway everybody knows it died out years ago, and you could never make a joke in it, or write poetry, or swear.

It's just some sort of Sudoko, for the worst kind of romance language linguist.

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