mnlg:

feargster:All the ki- words (kias[/color], kiu, kiom...) on the other hand...

Beeeeeeeeeeeep!

Perhaps 'kias' could be a suitable neologism for 'questions' (present indicative verb) or 'asks a question' of an undetermined sort. Thus 'Infanoj cxiam ki-as', 'Tiu ideo ja ki-otas de skeptikuloj.'

Miland:Perhaps 'kias' could be a suitable neologism for 'questions' (present indicative verb) or 'asks a question' of an undetermined sort. Thus 'Infanoj cxiam ki-as', 'Tiu ideo ja ki-otas de skeptikuloj.'

No, it cannot be accepted. The correlative parts (ki-, ti-, -o, -el, -am, etc) cannot be seen as normal prefixes/suffixes. Otherwise you'd have to accept forms like "tutes" or "liberam" or "nenicerto" which have no meaning.

Correlatives are to be seen as a thing apart. You could though say "kioas" or "kiootas", even though I wouldn't use them.

This is usually brought up for "alies" (someone else's), which is rather widespread in use even though it is not correct. "aliies" is correct. Most people tend to use "aliula", which is also declinable and thus more versatile (e.g. "Mi ne zorgas pri aliulaj problemoj", I don't care about other people's problems).

mnlg:There's little point in announcing joyfully that Esperanto gives freedom to its speakers because it has no fixed word order, only to accuse non-conformists of disrespect

I would never accuse non-conformists of disrespect. My only point is that it seems dishonest to me to announce joyfully that Esperanto has complete freedom of word order, but fail to let the students know that in spite of this, there is (in most cases) a "most common" order. I would never call a student "wrong" for their alternate order. My view on this is similar to my view on controversial issues in Esperanto - tell the student the issues, tell the student the viewpoints on both sides of the issue, and tell the student that they should feel free to think about both sides and make their own decision based on which side they think has a better case.

The advice I give students is informed by my own preferences as a learner. If I am speaking a foreign language and saying something in a way that is completely correct, but sounds weird to native speakers, I would appreciate it if a native speaker would tell me so, so that I can make my own fully-informed decision about whether I want to sound like the majority of the community that speaks that language, or whether I want to be an innovator who is always using the language in unusual (yet grammatically correct) ways.

I seem to recall that a certain Italian speaker once recommended that I not use the word "assai" somewhere because it would make me sound as if I were from Naples. I was told that it was not wrong to use it, perfectly valid word and everything. The Italian speaker though that perhaps I might not want to sound as if I were from Naples, and therefore told me about the issues involved, so that I might make my own decision regarding use of the word.

My goal is not to squash a beginner's sense of freedom and innovation in the language by forcing a bunch of unnecessary (and wrong) rules on them, but to let them know what the issues are. Not everyone wants to be an innovator who changes the language. Some people just want to learn how the language is spoken by the majority of speakers. I just want my students to have enough knowledge to make a personal, fully-informed choice about word order (or any other Esperanto issue).

erinja:I would never accuse non-conformists of disrespect.

If you use the word order you are using out of respect, then maybe you do think badly of those who don't...

but fail to let the students know that in spite of this, there is (in most cases) a "most common" order.

If it really is the "most common", the students will pick it up on their own (and actually they do, because of the studying material, which is phrased in that exact order. That's why so far I never had to mention anything about word order, even if I were so inclined).

similar to my view on controversial issues in Esperanto

I do not find anything controversial in expressing yourself as freely as you wish staying well within the rules of the language.

The advice I give students is informed by my own preferences as a learner.

I tend to be as neutral as possible. I do not think of myself as a perfect teacher. I might pass my tricks to my students, but I do not tell them to use the language as I like it to be used.

I seem to recall that a certain Italian speaker once recommended that I not use the word "assai" somewhere because it would make me sound as if I were from Naples.

If the word order in Esperanto were so tightly connected to geographical, social or cultural aspects as well, I would mention that to my students. But Esperanto wants to be neutral (whether it really manages or not, that could well take a whole other debate) and I think that freedom of expression responds first and foremost to the person using it. Using your rationale we should table this discussion until the time when Esperanto has developed sufficiently regulated dialects. Which would prove my point.

In Italian, adjectives follow their nouns. None of my students do that (and I primarily teach native Italian speakers). What should I tell them? That they are not behaving like Zamenhof and they should immediately change their order out of respect for him?

but to let them know what the issues are.

There might be our difference. I do not consider this an issue at all.

Not everyone wants to be an innovator who changes the language.

Most esperanto beginners do

Anyway, again, if this really is such a common thing to do, if it is so strange and weird to do otherwise, if it would be so controversial to behave differently, then the student will know that very easily and very soon (if they don't know it already) and then the student will decide what to do. It's completely unnecessary for me to tell them what they are supposed to do unless they are violating grammar rules.

Some people just want to learn how the language is spoken by the majority of speakers.

My job is to teach the language to those who want to learn the language; not to teach conformity. If and only if I am directly asked about word order (or any other characteristic of Esperanto usage), I will give my impression about it (and this is exactly what I did on my first reply to this thread, btw).

Amike.

mnlg:
If you use the word order you are using out of respect, then maybe you do think badly of those who don't...

I don't use it out of respect. I use it because it is the most common. I stick to the most common order, and vary the order in the (limited) cases when I want to add emphasis or sound more poetic for some reason.

If it really is the "most common", the students will pick it up on their own (and actually they do, because of the studying material, which is phrased in that exact order. That's why so far I never had to mention anything about word order, even if I were so inclined).

Your Italian students must be very different from my English ones. In spite of the fact that the learning material here at lernu is written 99% with the most common word order, only about 60-70% of my students use the word order that's used in the study materials. The remaining 30-40% don't. It is my strong impression that they switch things around not because they are trying to be innovative, not because they are trying to take full advantage of Esperanto's free word order (there are a few like this, but they are in the minority) but because they have previously studied a language like Spanish or German and they have some kind of idea that if Spanish does it, then Esperanto must do it too, or if German does it, then Esperanto will do it. Your experience has been that Italian speakers don't do it (even though Italian usually puts adjectives after nouns). When I've seen lessons of Spanish-speaking beginners, they have not put adjectives after nouns, since their learning materials don't. But I have tons of English-speaking students who put their adjectives after nouns. Almost always, when I look at the profiles of these students, I find they have studied Spanish. Or the ones that put verbs at the end; almost always, I look at their profiles and they have studied German or Latin. The ones who have studied German almost never start putting adjectives after nouns, and the ones who have studied Spanish almost never put verbs at the end. They are clearly not just playing with the language by taking advantage of its free word order. Some of these students seem to think that just because Language X does something, then it must be that Esperanto does it too, in spite of all evidence to the contrary in the learning materials themselves.

similar to my view on controversial issues in Esperanto

I do not find anything controversial in expressing yourself as freely as you wish staying well within the rules of the language.

Word order is not controversial but the question whether to correct very strange word usage and word order by students could be considered controversial, as evidenced by the conversation we're having right now.

The advice I give students is informed by my own preferences as a learner.

I tend to be as neutral as possible. I do not think of myself as a perfect teacher. I might pass my tricks to my students, but I do not tell them to use the language as I like it to be used.

I try to give students the benefit of my experience. If they use something that sounds really strange, I normally tell them that what they did is completely correct, but in my experience, XYZ is more common. They can choose for themselves whether to be "common" or not. I would not call myself a perfect teacher by any means (and certainly I'm a terrible teacher in a classroom setting) but as meager as my teaching skills are, I like to err on the side of giving students more information rather than less.

... I think that freedom of expression responds first and foremost to the person using it. Using your rationale we should table this discussion until the time when Esperanto has developed sufficiently regulated dialects. Which would prove my point.

In Italian, adjectives follow their nouns. None of my students do that (and I primarily teach native Italian speakers). What should I tell them? That they are not behaving like Zamenhof and they should immediately change their order out of respect for him?

Then as you see, we are coming at this from completely different perspectives because our students behave in completely different ways. Your students look at the Esperanto learning materials and imitate what they see in them when answering questions, rather than imitating the language patterns of their native language. My students (or around 30%-40% of them) look at the Esperanto learning materials and imitate the patterns that they have seen in languages that they've previously studied, rather than imitating the patterns they see in the learning materials or in their native language.

but to let them know what the issues are.

There might be our difference. I do not consider this an issue at all.

I consider speaking up when you see an unusual word order in a student's lesson to be an issue, versus remaining silent about it.

Not everyone wants to be an innovator who changes the language.

Most esperanto beginners do

I didn't, as a beginner. I think it's just a vocal minority of beginners who find Esperanto and say "What a great language! Let's see how I can change it!"

Anyway, again, if this really is such a common thing to do, if it is so strange and weird to do otherwise, if it would be so controversial to behave differently, then the student will know that very easily and very soon (if they don't know it already) and then the student will decide what to do. It's completely unnecessary for me to tell them what they are supposed to do unless they are violating grammar rules.

I don't tell them what they are supposed to do. I notify them that their word order is completely correct but unusual, tell them what the common word order is, and tell them that they can decide for themselves whether to go with the most common order or to use whatever order they feel like.

And clearly a significant percentage of my students are not picking up the most common order from the learning materials, or else we wouldn't even be having this conversation. They read the learning materials - and then decide to go with the word order of a language they studied previously.

Some people just want to learn how the language is spoken by the majority of speakers.

My job is to teach the language to those who want to learn the language; not to teach conformity. If and only if I am directly asked about word order (or any other characteristic of Esperanto usage), I will give my impression about it (and this is exactly what I did on my first reply to this thread, btw).

I don't "teach conformity". I tell the students what the most common order is, and they can choose to use it or not. All I know is that as far as languages are concerned, some people truly do want to conform to the norms and some people truly do want to push the limits of the language. By giving complete information, I give students the option of choosing which to do. I would never tell a student that they're bad or wrong or disrespectful or anything like that for choosing to consistently go with a non-standard word order. But I think full disclosure is important. Maybe I don't want to sound like I come from Naples, and maybe an English-speaking student who has studied Spanish doesn't want to sound like a Spanish person. Or maybe they do want to sound like a Spanish person (even though even Spanish beginners don't seem to often put adjectives after nouns). Or maybe they want to sound like a German person. Or maybe they want to sound like a person from the Planet Xyxyzyxy. But maybe they don't, so I tell them what the situation is and they can choose what they want to do.

erinja:I don't use it out of respect.

Okay. This is what I thought from your own admission, "[...] the current most common word order does have a long history behind it and I personally think that's worth respecting.".

Your Italian students must be very different from my English ones.

Well I guess they are indeed

I had a few students using a "non-common" word order, but this usually happens only after a few lessons, perhaps to prove the point that they are enjoying the freedom of word order. Of course I do not correct them nor I tell them anything about that. If it is free, it shall stay free. And their word order switches to the "most common" by itself in a short time anyway.

Of course whenever one of my students asks me what is the most common choice or whether some form "sounds good", I give them my impression out of my own experience.

Word order is not controversial but the question whether to correct very strange word usage and word order by students could be considered controversial, as evidenced by the conversation we're having right now.

Then we have a different definition of "controversial". To me it is synonimous with "polemical"; but this conversation is more about teaching styles and less about holding grudges...

I try to give students the benefit of my experience.

That I do too but only to avoid mistakes. When it comes to free choices, I only give my preference if it is asked. I find this to be a fair way of teaching.

Your students look at the Esperanto learning materials and imitate what they see in them when answering questions, rather than imitating the language patterns of their native language.

That might be the case, and I would say that it's a very healthy thing to do.

I didn't, as a beginner. I think it's just a vocal minority of beginners who find Esperanto and say "What a great language! Let's see how I can change it!"

I find this kind of enthusiasm (which is always benign) primarily in beginners fresh out of a course, thrilled by the supposed perfection of the language and trying to give their contribution to further improve it. Most experienced speakers are very happy with what they have.

I don't tell them what they are supposed to do. I notify them that their word order is completely correct but unusual, tell them what the common word order is, and tell them that they can decide for themselves whether to go with the most common order or to use whatever order they feel like.

I never do that, unless I feel that this might be the cause for a mistake in their understanding of the grammar. If their word order is unusual, then by getting better on their own they will surely pick up the most usual and decide what to do later.

By giving complete information, I give students the option of choosing which to do.

The way I see it, the "complete information" is already out there, in 99.9999% of all the written and spoken material pertaining to Esperanto. If my student is going to be a full-fledged speaker, he or she will definitely bump into the most common word order without my help. If they won't, then I don't even have to provide advice.

When my students have a hard time understanding a rule or a form, and I give them examples, I always phrase them according to the "most common" word order. All of their lessons and reading material are phrased like that too. I believe that this is more than enough to point them to that direction. If they still keep to their own variation, then it must be their choice and I have to respect it. I do not feel at all that I am keeping information from them.

But if you are so worried about it, why don't you ask for a revision of your teaching material so that it clearly states (in a friendly and non-committal way) that the most common word order is this and that, and that even though Esperanto gives freedom to its speakers, a standard "worth respecting" is currently being used by the majority of speakers?

mnlg:

erinja:I don't use it out of respect.

Okay. This is what I thought from your own admission, "[...] the current most common word order does have a long history behind it and I personally think that's worth respecting.".

To respect something means to hold it in high regard. You can respect something and still not choose to do it, you can respect a person and still not agree with them. If today's most common word order were different from the word order commonly found in the Fundamento, I would still speak in the most common order of today. That doesn't mean that I wouldn't respect the order found in the Fundamento. There are several grammatical forms that I say differently ("farintus" vs. "estus farinta") than what you would find in the Fundamento, but I still have the highest respect for the forms found in the Fundamento.

I had a few students using a "non-common" word order, but this usually happens only after a few lessons, perhaps to prove the point that they are enjoying the freedom of word order. Of course I do not correct them nor I tell them anything about that. If it is free, it shall stay free. And their word order switches to the "most common" by itself in a short time anyway.

My experience has usually been that if I someone uses an unusual word order, it will show up starting in lesson 1 and often continue on and off throughout the course.

I never do that, unless I feel that this might be the cause for a mistake in their understanding of the grammar. If their word order is unusual, then by getting better on their own they will surely pick up the most usual and decide what to do later.

I don't necessarily find that it gets better on its own, at least not within the span of the course.

If my student is going to be a full-fledged speaker, he or she will definitely bump into the most common word order without my help. If they won't, then I don't even have to provide advice.

Some students are not so observant. In any case, I don't see anything wrong with giving someone a heads up.

If they still keep to their own variation, then it must be their choice and I have to respect it.

Or else they're just not very observant. Some students consistently get certain grammatical points wrong, even though these forms are repeated correctly countless times in the text. Some Esperanto speakers never seem to notice that they use the -n wrong almost every single time, even though they have had contact with Esperanto for years and (aside from the -n issue) speak it decently well. Is that a conscious choice to use the -n wrong? More likely, it's just being too lazy to spend the time studying it, and not being observant enough to notice that every single fluent speaker and Esperanto text is using it differently than you.

Variant word order is still a different thing from incorrect use of -n, in the sense that incorrect use of -n is wrong and variant word order is not wrong. But my point is that some people are simply not observant enough to notice that the way they talk is different from how everyone else talks. It isn't always a conscious choice.

But if you are so worried about it, why don't you ask for a revision of your teaching material so that it clearly states (in a friendly and non-committal way) that the most common word order is this and that, and that even though Esperanto gives freedom to its speakers, a standard "worth respecting" is currently being used by the majority of speakers?

The majority of my students do fine and don't need any any mention of word order. I'm not so worried about it that I think it's worth putting into a course text. In any case, mentioning it to the minority of people who would benefit from having it mentioned seems more effective to me than putting a mention of it into the course itself.

My students can correct me if I'm wrong but I feel like I'm pretty friendly when letting them know that their word order is 100% correct but not the most common. I don't try to push my views on my students, even in issues that I feel fairly strongly about.

erinja:To respect something means to hold it in high regard.

I respect the fact that esperanto gives freedom in word order, and I respect slightly less when a variation on the "common usage" is automatically seen as a potential mistake (not necessarily being your case). I don't really want for Esperanto to have such cases that "sound bad", so common in ethnic languages. Even more so when it comes to parts of the language that are labeled as free, like word order.

My experience has usually been that if I someone uses an unusual word order, it will show up starting in lesson 1 and often continue on and off throughout the course.

Never had this occurrence in my 200+ students.

Some students are not so observant.

Huh? If there were a rule involved then observance would be an issue. But there isn't so it's not a matter of observance at all, simply of personal choice. And personally I think this is perfectly fine. What I like about esperanto is that it encourages your own personal way of expressing yourself. A student sooner or later will find out what is the common way for the majority and they will decide whether to conform or not.

Some students consistently get certain grammatical points wrong,

We all have our weaknesses. But if it comes to grammar rules it's another thing entirely IMO. I do correct any and all imperfections based on rules and I give plenty of examples. But I do not correct basing on common usage, even less so when Esperanto makes it a point to leave freedom to the speaker.

But my point is that some people are simply not observant enough to notice that the way they talk is different from how everyone else talks. It isn't always a conscious choice.

Be it conscious or unconscious, if it's not broken I'm not going to fix it.

All of my students who finish the course end up using the "most common" word order. So even if it would be an annoyance for me if they stuck to a variation (which it isn't at all) I'm not worried about it.

In any case, mentioning it to the minority of people who would benefit from having it mentioned seems more effective to me than putting a mention of it into the cours itself.

If you think it is something that all students should keep in mind, and each and every one of your messages so far are screaming this, then by all means it should be on the course, just for safety.

I feel like I'm pretty friendly when letting them know that their word order is 100% correct but not the most common.

I would never doubt that you are friendly and nice.

Amike.

mnlg:I don't really want for Esperanto to have such cases that "sound bad", so common in ethnic languages. Even more so when it comes to parts of the language that are labeled as free, like word order.

It does have cases that sound bad though. In this respect I think it's just like ethnic languages. I think it's an inherent aspect of languages period (not just ethnic, not just international) that it's possible to say le involved then observance would be an issue. But there isn't so it's not a matter of observance at all, simply of personal choice.[/quote]You're the one who first mentioned being observant, and students observing that there is a most common word order. So it seems like observance is an issue for you. You seem to be assuming that word order is always a matter of personal choice (that is, that every single person has made a conscious decision to use the most common word order or not to use it).

Be it conscious or unconscious, if it's not broken I'm not going to fix it.

If I think I have a piece of information that a student might appreciate having, I share it with the student. That's it. It's not "fixing" their speech, it's making them a fully informed person.

All of my students who finish the course end up using the "most common" word order. So even if it would be an annoyance for me if they stuck to a variation (which it isn't at all) I'm not worried about it.

That's very nice but all of my students do not end up using the most common word order, and it's my opinion that they may appreciate knowing that there does, in fact, exist a most common word order.

If you think it is something that all students should keep in mind, and each and every one of your messages so far are screaming this, then by all means it should be on the course, just for safety.

I think that students should keep in mind that Esperanto is not Spanish, German, Latin, Swahili, Chinese, Venetian, or any other language they may have studied in the past, but that doesn't mean I think it's worth mentioning in the course text.

I feel like I'm pretty friendly when letting them know that their word order is 100% correct but not the most common.

I would never doubt that you are friendly and nice.

On the contrary, your messages make me sound like some kind of closed-minded scrooge hell-bent on squashing my students' linguistic freedom and forcing them into narrow conformity.

erinja:It does have cases that sound bad though.

Might be, but I wish it hadn't and I don't want to create any other.

[I couldn't really understand the remainder of your first paragraph].

You're the one who first mentioned being observant

Not really. I might have meant it in the meaning of perceiving, not in the meaning of adherence to a rule, which is the impression that I got from your usage of this word.

And possibly risking repeating myself... the moment you become a fluent speaker and you relate to other speakers, you can't avoid picking up the "most common" word order. Whether to accept it or to stick to your own will be your decision.

You seem to be assuming that word order is always a matter of personal choice (that is, that every single person has made a conscious decision to use the most common word order or not to use it).

As long as it is my conscious decision to speak, then the order in which I place my words is (or at the very minimum, has at least once been) a conscious decision as well, even more so if you are not learning the language natively. If a language has strict rules about word order, you have to learn them and stick to them and you might end up phrasing your constructs mechanically, up to some degree. By not having any rule, Esperanto allows you to make a conscious decision (even if only to apply emphasis) and I think this should be encouraged.

If I think I have a piece of information that a student might appreciate having, I share it with the student.

I only do this in order to avoid mistakes or when it comes to grammar rules. I leave it to the student to find out what are the current trends in everything else, unless, of course, I am explicitly asked about that.

and it's my opinion that they may appreciate knowing that there does, in fact, exist a most common word order.

As I said, if they are going to be active speakers they will find out by themselves.

I think that students should keep in mind that Esperanto is not Spanish, German, Latin, Swahili, Chinese, Venetian, or any other language they may have studied in the past, but that doesn't mean I think it's worth mentioning in the course text.

I think this is too self-evident to be mentioned anyway.

The fact that there is no fixed word order, on the contrary, might be not that evident to a beginner, and it could be a good idea to mention that.

On the contrary, your messages make me sound like ...

This was never my intention and I am sincerely surprised by your words. I try to be open and polite at all times. My aim was to present my conclusions, and the motivations behind them. This does not, and wasn't meant to directly translate to an attack on your own opinions. When I said that I am certain of your friendliness I was being sincere, and it deeply saddens me to see that it seems that you took it as ironical. Perhaps the fact that I am not a native English speaker might have badly influenced my attempts at explaining myself.

However I do not wish to irritate anyone, so I will just withdraw from this conversation.

Amike