I read PMEG but didn't see where it said any rules were broken, just "you must do XYZ", which I presumed was more for common sense ("vi minsentas" makes no sense after all ")

ceigered:..."vi minsentas" makes no sense after all ")

Actually it does - when "vi" is she and...

ceigered:I read PMEG but didn't see where it said any rules were broken, just "you must do XYZ", which I presumed was more for common sense ("vi minsentas" makes no sense after all ")

Uh, it says:
Sin kiel memstara vorto estas uzebla nur pri la tria persono. Sed prefikseca sin estas uzata ankaŭ pri la unua kaj dua personoj: Kontraŭ s-ro K. mi estos singarda.[OV.550] = Mi gardos min kontraŭ s-ro K.
and:
En tiaj ĉi vortoj oni konservas la N-finaĵon de sin. Normale tamen N-finaĵoj (same kiel J-finaĵoj) forfalas ene de kunmetitaj vortoj.
So you cannot prefix any other object pronoun than sin.

Additionally it says that:
Tia sin-vorto povas havi ĉian finaĵon krom verba finaĵo: sinfido, sinfida, sinfide. Se oni volas uzi verban finaĵon, oni devas reiri al la origina frazeto, kie sin estas aparta vorto.
So with verbs you can prefix nothing, not even sin.

@geo63: No, that’s vi min sentas written in two words.

Now, I'm not recommending anyone use these hypothetical forms, but:

darkweasel:Uh, it says:
Sin kiel memstara vorto estas uzebla nur pri la tria persono. Sed prefikseca sin estas uzata ankaŭ pri la unua kaj dua personoj: Kontraŭ s-ro K. mi estos singarda.[OV.550] = Mi gardos min kontraŭ s-ro K.
and:
En tiaj ĉi vortoj oni konservas la N-finaĵon de sin. Normale tamen N-finaĵoj (same kiel J-finaĵoj) forfalas ene de kunmetitaj vortoj.
So you cannot prefix any other object pronoun than sin.

That's only talking about sin though, and that it only is 3rd person when it is not affixed. It doens't mention min, vin, lin, sxin, ilin etc, especially when they're prefixed (if they hypothetically could).

Additionally it says that:
Tia sin-vorto povas havi ĉian finaĵon krom verba finaĵo: sinfido, sinfida, sinfide. Se oni volas uzi verban finaĵon, oni devas reiri al la origina frazeto, kie sin estas aparta vorto.
So with verbs you can prefix nothing, not even sin.

Now this part is more me wondering about PMEG itself - why does the sin have to be deprefixed? That sort of conflicts with the normal Esperanto word derivation system. I don't see what rule there is preventing us from having sin(VERB)i and (VERB)i (PRONOUN)in. That would be quite flexible, and logical according to the way Esperanto normally works.

While it might be a bit convoluted, not being able to use verbs with prefixal sin- sorta prevents the hypothetical "Mi sinĝenigi lin", which might be understood as "I caused him to trouble himself", which might have practical applications

Simioenlaurbo:And here I thought it should be "virĉu."

Haha, virĉu it is then, rajĉisnis could be misinterpreted as pretentiousness in some contexts now that I remember how this language of mine works

ceigered:
Now this part is more me wondering about PMEG itself - why does the sin have to be deprefixed? That sort of conflicts with the normal Esperanto word derivation system. I don't see what rule there is preventing us from having sin(VERB)i and (VERB)i (PRONOUN)in. That would be quite flexible, and logical according to the way Esperanto normally works.

While it might be a bit convoluted, not being able to use verbs with prefixal sin- sorta prevents the hypothetical "Mi sinĝenigi lin", which might be understood as "I caused him to trouble himself", which might have practical applications

Isn't there some rule saying that only the last element in a compound word should be declined?

In which case, isn't allowing a verbal form going against this?:

sin[root]as, or
min[root]as

For: [root]as min/sin

Because one has to then alter the structure of both the final and initial elements in the compound word, depending on the meaning you're after.

Also...

Wouldn't "Mi sinĝenigis lin" not make sense anyway because "sin" can only refer to the subject of the verb?

EldanarLambetur:Isn't there some rule saying that only the last element in a compound word should be declined?

In which case, isn't allowing a verbal form going against this?:

sin[root]as, or
min[root]as

For: [root]as min/sin

Because one has to then alter the structure of both the final and initial elements in the compound word, depending on the meaning you're after.

Mmm, but this is where it gets complicated. If only the last element "has to" be declined (I'm not sure how it should be worded), then taking sin off can technically be seen as an exclusive declination for the verb form.

So "sin(root)as" should technically be able to stay intact, meaning grammatical-self(root)as. (why that'd be used instead of mem-root-as might just be because sin-root-o and sin-root-a forms already exist.)

As for "min(root)as", we could describe it as being a verb that always refers to first person , but since such a form is pretty much unusable (unless it was something kidsy like "bars" in a game of chasey, e.g. "mintuŝado ne estas permesata kiam mi staras tie ĉi... (touch) Oj! Ne mintuŝu!!"), I would have thought "sin(root)as" would at least be allowed.

Isn't there some rule saying that only the last element in a compound word should be declined?

I don't think that there is a rule as such, and the grammatical finaĵoj do crop up sometimes in the middle of Esperanto words (usually as an aid to pronunciation).

Examples would be 'nepagipova', 'artefarita', 'skribotablo'.

But as the Dark Weasel quote points out this doesn't usually happen with 'n' or 'j'.

In a word like 'gast-ama' (hospitable), it is not felt necessary to mark the 'gast' as noun or as plural or as the object of love.

Actually, if we did say Ŝi gastojn-amas, you wouldn't know how to write that down since the sound would be the same as 'ŝi gastojn amas'.

Maybe, for the same reason we avoid 'Li singardas' because on hearing it you couldn't know whether to write 'li sin gardas' or not. However with 'Li estas singarda' there is no ambiguity of transcription, because 'li estas sin garda' is not good Esperanto.

Postscript: I was trying to think of further examples where the 'n' is included in a word, and then suddenly I remembered the witty 'ne-min-tuŝulino' used to refer to a prudish stuck-up woman.