Slu/Sal'

During searching the Net regarding "what's all about Interlingua" I found an document called "Interlingua revised/Anatomy of a failure/ Interlingua analysed". The document was written by an Esperantist (Rik Dalton). Even throught that the prejudiced final result is clear (=Esperanto is the best IAL), it gives interesting linguistic overview with some historical background about the Interlingua, Ido, Esperanto triple. Btw, I receive that document very motivating to proceed learning Esperanto.

Original link: http://rik.poreo.org/interlingua_revised2.doc

Pdf version I created via OpenOffice (Layout isn't the best)

ĝp,

I'm finding this hard to read, I'm only on the first page and it's evident that this person is letting some personal bias cloud the overall article.

For example, it makes a jab at Interlingua's expectation that any "civilised" person can learn it easily, but if I recall Interlingua was always aimed at the western/central european languages, and not to include the entire world, not to mention that if we were to take the author's jab at Interlingua in this case, it's easy to turn it around to face Esperanto (grammatically neither are very complicated, although one could probably say that Esperanto is more slavic inspired while Interlingua is definitely more romance inspired).

Secondly, there's the implication that Esperanto must be somehow different in form or grammar in a special yet unseen way that makes it the only constructed language to be able to develop culture. I think it's safe to say that Esperanto simply just had a better community grow around it, and chance and luck favoured it, and this community is what grew the Esperanto culture, not some speciality about the language itself (of course, this in turn makes the language itself special, but to imply that this special feature was inbuilt into the language before it grew a community is a bit tall).

The author also goes politically correct and criticises Gode's writing in interlingua (which curiously he does not translate/summarise despite saying that this sort of instant-understandibility is a failure), without actually looking into what Gode might have meant (the gist was that Gode said that modern civilisation finds its roots in Roman times, and the author then takes that to say that Gode is saying all non-western civilisation is uncivilised - however, had he used his noggin a bit, he might have found the alternate interpretation, that western civilisation starting from the Romans had spread and formed a strong basis for Modern civilisation through the imperialism of the previous ages. The author though, despite calling Gode's comment cultural imperialism, does not go "wait... Imperialism, that's right, the Europeans tried to conquer the world and failed at it, surely Gode might be referring to that incidental spread of culture!")

And then based on the previous assumption, the author says Gode's system is useless, and says that Interlinguists "confess this". I might draw the author to comments made by Gode, that he did not want Interlingua to develop a culture of "Esperantists", and did not see interlingua as being a practical world solution and did not intend it as such.

Futhermore, the author demonstrates a certain lack of knowledge about interlingua, and assumes that because it does not run according to the same, 1 letter = 1 sound system of Esperanto, it is therefore irregular.

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Alas, there are some good points made, although I feel some of them are made in spite. The author correctly criticises ILMI for calling Schleyer a defrocked monk. But in the end it feels more like he's criticising them for the sake of criticising interlingua, regardless of reason, rather than defending Volapük. Some criticisms that do lean towards possibly interesting findings aren't provable either, for example, his criticisms of Interlingua's inability to be used as a springboard for languages are based on Gode's word, and one case study (also possibly from Gode). How can we know that this "evidence" is actually reputable? Gode himself might have thought Esperanto couldn't function as an effective springboard either (which I'd say is rubbish, but I'd say the same for Interlingua's sake as well).

Overall, I find the tone very damning, the author all over the place, and over all the document seems like an excuse to attack Interlingua, rather than analyse it properly and come to a reasonable conclusion.

As a video-gamer, I can do naught but compare the author to a console-fan-boy who plays nothing but Halo, which alone is OK, but then decides to pay out anyone else for liking something else, but arbitrarily supporting competition if it allows them to take a bigger dump on someone else's joy.

What saddens me a bit more is that I can see how such blatant tunnel-sighted support for Esperanto is what can make our community so laughable at times, making us look like rigid adherents to some political cause rather than human beings capable of having multiple allegiances and a free will.

Not to mention the quality of research seems appalling, yet the document is written with the conviction that gives the impression what the man says is all truth if you don't know any better. Wikipedia editors would have hernias just reading this. "PERSONAL RESEARCH! BIAS! OPINIONS! NO SOURCES! POLITICALLY CHARGED!"

I only hope there's a lot of hidden good parts that I skipped over by accident.

Angry rant over for forseeable future

Rant briefly resumed in case some misunderstand my views on colonialism and other worrisome topics

(I'll just clarify about the bit about imperialism - I'm not, and I think Gode wasn't, saying that other civilisations didn't exist nor contribute to the overall picture, but it was by the (excessive/mercantilistic/greedy/choose a derogatory adjective) European imperialisation of most of the world that led to strong western and unified urban cultures, and that this fact cannot be ignored, and can be used in a positive manner - while it has led to many social issues, evidence of this previous era (e.g. political collapse in Africa due to local regimes being too heavily disrupted by colonialism to resume to normality, bloody civil war in China, and worries about language death and cultural imperialism in the modern day, there are some benefits - it's enabled some level of unity across the world, an unparalleled one (a lot of which can be attributed to the British Empire - "a lot" meaning a lot of bad stuff as well ). I believe it was this unchangeable, already-happened language spread by the western, heavily Roman inspired empires that Gode is referring to, and the author has very convenient twisted the meaning to suit their impression of his words, and liken him to Mussolini. Not once does Gode promote European imperialism or a return to the Roman empire, but merely points out the pax-romana-esque benefits that can be salvaged from the tumultuous era of long gone by, rather than merely brooding over it and not gettin' stuff done.

Hopefully such clarification helps people NOT get the wrong idea about what I'm saying. It'd be very embarrassing and frustrating for me as a student, learning about east asia including the cultural invasions and blending there, to find myself coming off with a different meaning than that intended. Of course, some might not understand such "always-a-silver-lining" optimism, to those I apologise.).

ceigered:I'm finding this hard to read, I'm only on the first page and it's evident that this person is letting some personal bias cloud the overall article.

I got this feeling as well. Despite the author saying he isn't writing the article as an argument for Esperanto, he certainly makes it a point to prove its superiority over Interlingua.

ceigered:For example, it makes a jab at Interlingua's expectation that any "civilised" person can learn it easily...

Let's not forget that Zamenhof made the same claim about Esperanto in Unua Libro

Hhm. That's interesting. Probably I don't get the English fine tunes of that text. Until now I read the text twice. And as an non-English native I don't feel it difficult to read. I have read much more difficult English texts before. Of course, the text would never be accepted like an scientific paper. But, hhm. Probably I have to read it third time. But page 4 clearly shows the intention of that paper:

"...Esperanto and its functions are referred to only as a background against which Interlingua can be measured but, as the case for Interlingua is generally presented by means of an attack* on Esperanto, it is necessary to see to what extent this attack* is justified. Whilst the condition of the Interlingua movement# may make it appear cruel to attack* such a moribund monstrosity, the fact that the neo-Latinist argument has kept arising for well over a century suggests that an examination may be desirable..."

*Three times mentioned "attack". What I really wonder again and again is that kind of "attack against Esperanto"-paranoia. Seems to be one of the core principles of that such called "Movado#": "Everybody attacks us. We have to be aware. Attacking first is the best defense." ktp. Pooh. Is that a live or dead gang fight, or what? I seldom encounter such attacks during mentioning Esperanto during some conversation al non-Esperantists. Some dislike Esperanto. But most are relaxed interested whats all about that Esperanto.

And I should proceed to read the German Interlingua course. At least the course material has an professional presented layout. Its more to find back motivation to learn Esperanto learning material.

Okay, its your turn, linguistic folks. Something useful at this text?

adherents to some political cause

Esperanto was in the beginning and still is, for many speakers, a political cause - in the sense of changing how the world is run.

How could you see the desire to obviate the necessity of massive investment in time and money by non-native speakers in the learning of a foreign national language (in order to get a decent job among other things) as anything other than a political cause - and a noble one at that?

The link that Qwertz gave seems to be written in very clear English and well argued in detail. I suspected that Interlingua was impractical, and had no idea how much so. Thank you Qwertz.

You should be more aware Ceiger how much of a penalty the adoption of English as the world's language imposes on those not fortunate enough to have been born in an English speaking country.

One does not need excuses to mock Interlingua. It mocks itself when a one-line Esperanto pronunciation rule becomes three pages full of rules, exceptions to the rules and exceptions to the exceptions in Interlingua.

(I also hate when they substitute “natural” for “irregular” or “unpredictable”)

Ho ve. Surely such patronising language is undue, and highly un-Esperantist?

Sudanglo:You should be more aware Ceiger how much of a penalty the adoption of English as the world's language imposes on those not fortunate enough to have been born in an English speaking country.

I didn't say anything about me being unaware.
This cause for concern, a noble one, does not however instantly grant the right to slander other peoples ideas while taking offence at any criticism of your own. I might add that even if unfair slander comes from the Interlingua side, a quote (perhaps more paraphrasing with my memory) of Gandhi is due:

"An eye for an eye would make the world go blind".

I'll clarify that I meant the political adherence that the paper implied was sort of single-minded, not the political adherence I later referred to, where someone is allowed to have their own, varied, political beliefs and able to change them without being seen as standing for nothing or being wrong.

Qwertz:"Everybody attacks us. We have to be aware. Attacking first is the best defense." ktp. Pooh. Is that a live or dead gang fight, or what? I seldom encounter such attacks during mentioning Esperanto during some conversation al non-Esperantists. Some dislike Esperanto. But most are relaxed interested whats all about that Esperanto.

That's pretty much it. I don't get why this is such a big thing in EOlando. There's so much positivity in the Esperanto world, it sounds just embarassing when someone writes an essay like this and attacks.

As for the English, it;s only in plain English if you agree with his bias. To a non-native you probably find it easier to read without the bias glaring you in the face (which I envy) (maybe I'm getting a little biased myself though, the bias isn't glaring... OK maybe it is after rereading a little).

But basically, he actively leaves out details, and writes in a way that gives an impression of a meaning, which then:
A) Makes people with similar opinions/superstitions to himself go "Oh, I completely agree"
but then B) Makes people with opposing opinions/superstitions go "Oh, you're trying to imply XYZ rude thing about Gode/Interlingua/unicorns!"

And then his rebuttal is that he "left things without "drawing a conclusion" so the reader can make their mind up". He avoids actually blatantly stating a lot of things, instead just writing in a way that convinces you of his argument without being accountable.

The more I think about this article, I'm sorry but it's just rubbish, pure EO propaganda. The man's seemingly bitter about some rude interlinguist, and is being the same bitter man back.

marcuscf:(I also hate when they substitute “natural” for “irregular” or “unpredictable”)

I do too. Ironically though, when people assume that a natural-sounding language like Interlingua must therefore be irregular and unpredictable, and therefore bad. It's unfortunately a very strong viewpoint held by some in the Esperanto community, which seems to do more to only perpetuate interlingual-problems rather than solve them.

An interesting yahoo message on the topic

some dude:The problem with this position is that it gives Rik (or other
Esperantists) a kind of "parliamentary immunity", the power to make
any statement they wish without challenge from non-Esperantists. To
put it in Rik's words: "Ni,la elituloj decidos kion vi legos. Vi
pasive akceptu".

Additionally, according to this link, he resign from EAB (EO assoc of britain, possibly wrong way of writing it) saying that he wasn't leaving Esperanto but the association had. This somewhat gives me the suspicion that the man has somewhat polarised views on the subject.

I'm sorry if I'm acting a little angry here. I just hate seeing languages dissed and slagged off, especially when "People who live in glass houses should not throw stones" seems to be being completely disregarded for any wisdom it has.

I say this that above bit no longer primarily as myself but as an Esperantist.

Just to give Interlingua community an face, one of the very seldom videos of that Ia-community: Nulle calma en Kalmar.

Okay, at this video also some folks mark themselves like movadulojn "battle army". But I really like that refreshing answer of Alexandra at 1.45min responding to the question: Que es tu impressiones de iste incontro? (I assume without knowing any Interlingua: What are your impressions of that (Ia-)event? Es amusante. (Its amusing(?).

Yes, thats also I feel using any foreign language I have some command of (currently English and Esperanto): Its amuzing. Nothing less. Everything else is constructed at this basic "Its amusing". And I also would like see friendly co-existence of Interlingua, Ido and Esperanto community. And no battling each other. That also could include participating of members of that communities at each others events. To support that idea I'm also interested to make some karaoke version of Interlingua and Ido songs I like. Same I did with Igor's Maestro dil Sono: Me amoras tu.

Its also interesting, that Interlingua community doesn't seem to need any flag.

I still can not find any information about the matter if somebody holds any copyright of Interlingua language.

That all interest for Interlingua comes of my study of Esperanto. And of course, also of the fact, that the sound of spoken Esperanto I did encounter during 4 Youth Espo events doesn't meet excactly my taste. Currently I like more the sound of spoken Ido and Interlingua then Esperanto. But that doesn't matter my noticable motivation to improve my Esperanto language skills. Because of http://jes.pej.pl/2011/ already heads up.