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"insofar as"

од roint, 01. октобар 2011.

Поруке: 24

Језик: English

Donniedillon (Погледати профил) 02. октобар 2011. 16.16.46

roint:I'm looking to translate certain passages of Spinoza's Ethics into Esperanto...
I am a big Spinoza fan and would love to read your translations. Would you be willing to email or private message them to me when you finish?

qwertz (Погледати профил) 02. октобар 2011. 16.20.41

darkweasel:
erinja:Someone might want to look in their PIV.
Grrr. lango.gif Already excists a digital community version?

darkweasel (Погледати профил) 02. октобар 2011. 16.27.08

qwertz:
darkweasel:
erinja:Someone might want to look in their PIV.
Grrr. lango.gif Already excists a digital community version?
The PDF I’ve screenshotted has already been existing for a long time, google for it and you’ll find it.

qwertz (Погледати профил) 02. октобар 2011. 16.37.24

Yes, yes, yes. I know.

roint (Погледати профил) 03. октобар 2011. 13.50.04

Donnie Dillon: I don't have plans to translate the entire thing right now, unfortunately since I have only a highschool-level knowledge of Latin. However, I have translated a few passages from Latin (which took hours) into Esperanto and they were virtually the same as the ones I made from the Edwin Curley's English version, which is nice to know.

As for the "aux" of equivalence, since it is used so much in the Ethics, within very large, complicated sentences, unfortunately a large construction like "kiu en la pensado de Spinoza egalas al", though clear, wouldn't be appropriate. It would either have to be a simple one-word construction like "auxsame", or just "aux" italicized, like in the English translation. An example sentence, in which the first two "or"s are "alternative" and the third is "equivalent":

"Thus, whether we conceive nature under the attribute of extension, or under the attribute of thought, or under any other attribute, we shall find the same order, or one and the same chain of causes-that is, the same things following in either case."

It's a distinction which greatly clarifies his metaphysics, since he equates so many ideas with other ideas, like "reality = perfection", "god = nature = substance", etc.

BTW - Book titles using "or" are a great example of the "or of equivalence", although usually the first title is meant to be used more, like "The Hobbit, or There and Back Again"

But the real tough nut for me is "insofar as", which is another term used quite a bit in the Ethics. I think I like "tiugrade" the best, but could you explain why it's preferable to "tiomgrade"? Just curious about that.

darkweasel (Погледати профил) 03. октобар 2011. 14.43.29

roint: I think I like "tiugrade" the best, but could you explain why it's preferable to "tiomgrade"? Just curious about that.
Because tiugrade is a vortigo (according to PMEG terminology) of de tiu grado.

You cannot say *de tiom grado or anything similar, so you cannot say *tiomgrade.

erinja (Погледати профил) 03. октобар 2011. 17.33.15

Just out of curiosity, why are you focusing on translating "insofar as"? What's the original Latin word used in this case? And what do other languages do in this situation? (French, Spanish, etc?). I assume this work has been translated into many languages, and I bet you can compare a lot of different translations to see what word choices they made.

Balbutanto (Погледати профил) 03. октобар 2011. 20.38.58

darkweasel:
roint: I think I like "tiugrade" the best, but could you explain why it's preferable to "tiomgrade"? Just curious about that.
Because tiugrade is a vortigo (according to PMEG terminology) of de tiu grado.

You cannot say *de tiom grado or anything similar, so you cannot say *tiomgrade.
I knew it was too good to be true [sigh].

sudanglo (Погледати профил) 04. октобар 2011. 10.49.12

Hang on a minute!

You cannot say buso haltejo (as two separate words) but that doesn't mean that the word 'bushaltejo' is invalid.

Tiomgrade ke .. seems perfectly valid to me.

darkweasel (Погледати профил) 04. октобар 2011. 12.27.08

sudanglo:Hang on a minute!

You cannot say buso haltejo (as two separate words) but that doesn't mean that the word 'bushaltejo' is invalid.

Tiomgrade ke .. seems perfectly valid to me.
PMEG: Vortigo per A-finaĵo aŭ E-finaĵo

Iafoje oni aŭdas formojn kiel *tielmaniere*. Ili estas eraraj. Se oni restarigas la plenan frazeton, oni vidas, ke nur tiu aŭ tia eblas: en tiu maniero, en tia maniero, sed ne *en tiel maniero*. Simile oni diru tiutage (= “en tiu tago”), ne *tiamtage*.

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