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Esperanto for "mac(c)aroni and cheese"?

貼文者: jkph00, 2011年12月29日

訊息: 37

語言: English

cFlat7 (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日上午1:59:27

jkph00:
cFlat7:Kraft-mango? ridulo.gif
I LOVE it! Kraft-manĝo. rido.gif But you'd almost have to be an American to understand it. (Kraft produces a boxed maccaroni and cheese here which is known to everyone.)
...and in Canada too. It is called Kraft Dinner (also KD).

erinja (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日上午2:08:19

jkph00:But you'd almost have to be an American to understand it. (Kraft produces a boxed maccaroni and cheese here which is known to everyone.)
I liked that stuff when I was a kid. Now I find it too salty, not enough taste. My mom's homemade mac and cheese is much better, though when I was a kid, I probably preferred the Kraft.

sudanglo (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日下午12:05:13

Yes Chainy, NPIV lists makaronioj (plural form) also spagetoj is listed in the plural.

Requesting a translation of Macaroni in the Lernu-votaro (Eng->Esp) throws up Makaronio singular. But Spaghetti gets translated as spagetoj.

erinja (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日下午12:37:52

My lingvosento tells me to say "makaronioj", like we say "spagetoj".

It's also an issue for lasagne, which is also plural in Italian. The Italian dictionary at lernu has it as "lazanoj", though I'd go for "lazanjoj" myself.

EDIT: Wells gives "lasanjoj", which I like the best of all the options.

Since it's an Italian dish I have a slight inclination to give the Italians the final say on this, but I don't have my Italian-Esperanto paper dictionary close at hand, so I can't check up on that at the moment. I'm not sure how wonderful the lernu dictionary is.

Tjeri (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日下午1:51:43

darkweasel (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日下午2:06:14

And Wikipedia has lasanjoj.

(This thread is making me hungry.)

Miland (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日下午6:38:49

Wells (2010) also has spagetoj and lasanjoj (and ravioloj), but makaronio is in both Wells (2010) and Butler (1967), the last which doesn't have the other pastaĵoj.

So it may be that makaronio has been established in the past, but it might give way to the plutal form, depending on prevailing usage.

sudanglo (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日下午10:36:17

The case for makaronio being an exception, ie. not following the pattern of spagetoj, lasanjoj and ravioloj, would presumably be that it appears somewhat silly to duplicate the plural (assuming that the 'i' is a plural marker in the source language, Italian).

Italian speakers might perhaps be especially sensitive to this.

The word for macaroni could have been makaronoj, fitting in with the spagetoj pattern, if makarono had not been needed for macaroon.

The Esperanto word for 'jeans', ĝinzo, incorporates a foreign plural marker (at least phonologically). Jeans is pronounced with a 'z' sound in English and is grammatically plural - my jeans are, not is.

But this is a little different since ĝinzo does not have a plural base form in Esperanto.

Though, of course, in ĝinzoj (more than one pair of jeans) you have a plural duplication from an etymological point of view.

I'm not sure of the origin of kekso, but if that is derived from English 'cakes', then in that case you have the absurd situation, for English ears, that one cookie is a kekso.

darkweasel (顯示個人資料) 2011年12月31日下午11:12:46

sudanglo:
I'm not sure of the origin of kekso, but if that is derived from English 'cakes'
At least indirectly it definitely is.

Another example, BTW, is ĉipso.

erinja (顯示個人資料) 2012年1月1日上午2:24:00

It makes perfect sense to talk about "makaronoj" in the plural; you don't eat just one noodle, do you? I don't.

It's like how we talk about eating chips. We don't say "I'm going to eat chip now". Of course you eat more than one chip (whether you're talking UK chips or US chips, this is the case!)

Hence "ĉipsoj" in Esperanto, the s is retained from English, but we still keep it plural, because you don't eat just one.

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