Beiträge: 59
Sprache: English
sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 26. März 2012 10:50:27
However it is jam packed with examples taken from the literature (or made up to illustrate the point) and even has some suggestions for innovative usage.
There was an earlier edition in which it was printed in several volumes, you might be able to pick up second-hand copies of that quite cheaply at a congress book sale.
Don't worry about vol III. That's just about word-formation and over-imbued with a certain theoretical bias (that words are derived from roots with their own grammatical character, rather than the idea that the meaning of a root in a compound comes from the meaning of root+finaĵo.).
Search the Forums for the discussion about the meaning of vestejo to see the issue, if you are interested. [Does it mean Vesto-ejo or Vesti-ejo, or both]
I think, that my copy of the earlier edition was around 1957. But, unfortunately there's a book gremlin in my flat, who every so often steals around hiding and rearranging my library, so that certain books are never where I last remembered seeing them.
tommjames (Profil anzeigen) 26. März 2012 10:50:56
It seems pretty clear that "bone" is describing the implied idea of "fartado", rather than how well I do the feeling. Mi sentas min farti bone, or something like that.
As for the discussion in PAG, I quote:
PAG:Rim. II. Atentu pri la diferenco inter adverba adjekto kaj objekta predikativo. La unua karakterizas la agon: li juĝas sin senerare (lia juĝo pri si estas senerara); mi sentas min bone (mia farto estas bona). La dua karakterizas, helpe de la predikato, la objekton: li juĝas sin senerara (laŭ sia juĝo li estas senerara); mi sentas min bona (laŭ mia sento mi estas bona).
sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 26. März 2012 11:06:34
You couldn't find for me, the PAG reference where they discuss this issue
whether he should say Mi legas la libron 'D-ro Jekyll kaj S-ro Hyde, tradukita de ... or, tradukitan de ...and how there was a time when there was a tendency not to 'akordigi'.
tommjames (Profil anzeigen) 26. März 2012 11:34:13
sudanglo:You couldn't find for me, the PAG reference where they discuss this issue Citaĵo: whether he should say Mi legas la libron 'D-ro Jekyll kaj S-ro Hyde, tradukita de ... or, tradukitan de ...I had a look but I couldn't find any instances of "Jekyll" or "Hyde" or "tradukitan de" in the text. If you want I can send you a .pdf file that will allow you to run a search on the text yourself, instead of flicking through the book.
RiotNrrd (Profil anzeigen) 27. März 2012 00:10:32
tommjames:...and the proof of that is simple: it almost never does mean that...In the sentence "mi sentas min bone", there are two pronouns, one verb, and one adverb. My understanding is that adverbs modify verbs. If that is true, then "bone", the only adverb in the sentence, should modify "sentas", the only verb in the sentence. It should not modify "mi" or "min" (as they are not verbs), and therefore it should have nothing to say about any qualities of "mi" or "min" (qualities being expressed, of course, by adjectives - of which that sentence has none).
Certainly, my understanding of the rules is imperfect. I expect someone can easily explain how other interpretations than mine are perfectly within the grammatical rules, and how it is that a simple (root + e) adverb can be seen as modifying a pronoun instead of the verb that is sitting right next to it.
I understand the intent of the sentence - it is clear what is *meant*, purely from the context. I am just questioning how someone can derive that intended meaning from the words being used to express it, as the words seem to literally be expressing something else entirely. Intent and actual expression are not the same thing. But, as I said, my understanding of the rules is imperfect at best, and I am sure that your interpretation is perfectly reasonable.
I just don't see exactly how.
kaffirlily (Profil anzeigen) 27. März 2012 00:30:47
sudanglo:There was an earlier edition in which it was printed in several volumes, you might be able to pick up second-hand copies of that quite cheaply at a congress book sale.Thanks, Sudanglo – do you happen to know whether it's available in e-book format? I live in rural Australia, so I'm unlikely to happen across a congress book sale any time soon.
erinja (Profil anzeigen) 27. März 2012 02:38:57
However, someone posted a PDF version of PAG on this Russian Esperanto forum
kaffirlily (Profil anzeigen) 27. März 2012 03:16:30
Edited to add: I just found PMEG online, hurray!
sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 27. März 2012 08:18:34
Rilate tion, mi dirus, ke....
Dekstre de la stacidomo, staris eta butiko
Mi tramarŝis la urbon, pensante pri tio, kio ĵus okazis.
Mi eliris spite de tio, ke pluvegis kaj ŝajne ne baldaŭ ĉesos.
sudanglo (Profil anzeigen) 27. März 2012 08:34:49
There's bound to be some sort of Esperanto activity in Sydney. Mind you, no telling in advance what the strangulo-ratio is. Coincidentally, I have a niece in Sydney.