Forigite

Esperanto may or may not be the ideal language for world-wide communication. Not everyone will agree on that. Do we really need a world-wide language? Maybe not. However, I have lately been thinking about Esperanto as an artistic work in itself. An artificial language is an artistic expression of its creator. For this I'm thankful to have an opportunity to learn it. I do not intend to use it to eliminate other languages. Instead I hope to learn other languages more easily now that I know Esperanto.

To those who question whether language extinction is a big deal: Check your privilege. In other words - is the language and culture of your parents and grandparents the dominant language in your society? Do you come from a culture which has a long tradition of colonization, exploitation, and predatory behavior? Are you white, male, middle to upper class or from a middle to upper class family?

If any of the above are true, consider that you don't know and could not possibly understand the experience of somebody who is of a culture which has been brutalized, dehumanized, abused, deformed and in some cases brought to the brink of extinction by your own. You don't know and can't possibly know what it feels like to speak the language of your own father imperfectly because he was worried it simply wouldn't be practical to teach it to you, making it impossible to communicate with your cousins, aunts, uncles and grandparents with confidence. Your language isn't the one in danger, nor is your culture, nor is your ability to live comfortably.

To everyone else: there are some important points you are not addressing:
Some of you are insisting that Esperanto would not supplant native languages. Without exception, lingua francas have historically always supplanted local languages - whether they became lingua francas through conquest (English, French, Spanish, Mandarin) or mutual agreement (Swahili, Hausa). Esperantists insist that they wouldn't intend for their language to supplant local ones, but intention and reality are two very different things. Arguments that Esperanto doesn't belong to anyone or that it is somehow neutral are unimpressive - it's distinctly European, and for a person not from a European tradition, it is alienating. So, why would Esperanto be different as a lingua franca and not cause language displacement/extinction?
EldanarLambetur mentioned the point of "practicality" and that it is impractical to argue against the idea of a lingua franca (be it a natural language or an IAL). One could argue that creating a language, teaching it to enough people to form a substantial movement and then advocating for its international adoption in order to enhance global communication is impractical - but as all of you can see, its "practicality" has no bearing on whether or not its possible. Arguing from that defeatist position of "practicality" is limiting and justifies the maintenance of unjust status quos. It keeps us from testing the limits of possibility. I believe instead of advocating for Esperanto or another IAL, we should be learning the languages of our ancestors, and if we are lucky enough to already speak them then we should encourage others to do the same and learn other natural languages. Many of you already are learning natural languages - great! That's one of the reasons the Esperanto movement attracted me in the first place, but I came to realize that its aims are in direct opposition to language diversity.

Mustelvulpo mentioned language death is a part of the world's natural cycle just as physical death is. The tendency of ecology is towards diversity - not towards extinction, although human beings are reversing that tendency - but mainly at their own expense. I keep referencing these numbers because I hope they will drive the point home - 80% of the world speaks only 1.1% of its languages. In 10 years, 40% of the languages still spoken today will be extinct. Certainly - extinction happens, it's "natural" and a part of the "natural cycle". But would the fact that death is a natural cycle make you feel better about drinking gasoline or playing in the street? I hope not.

Erinja: Esperanto events sound like a lot of fun. Like I said earlier, the fact that many Esperanto speakers like to learn languages in general originally drew me to the movement. I was turned off from it though because I realized the goals of the movement were at odds with language diversity. I feel that many Esperantists who are also passionate about languages and language diversity are simply unexamined - they are unaware of the histories of colonization, lingua francas and language politics. Often (though certainly not always) this is because they come from a privileged race and social class.

Don't get me wrong - I think it's fine to learn Esperanto on your own, and I am not against the idea of Esperanto events. However, I am against the idea of promoting it as an international auxiliary language for reasons mentioned before.

Husaaved:To those who question whether language extinction is a big deal: Check your privilege. In other words - is the language and culture of your parents and grandparents the dominant language in your society?

Do you come from a culture which has a long tradition of colonization, exploitation, and predatory behavior?

Are you white, male, middle to upper class or from a middle to upper class family?

No x3

Have you ever thought about how people are constructing new languages and new cultures? While the natural tribal languages of Earth fall victim to modern civilization, new languages and new cultures like Na'vi, Klingon, Elvish, and thousands more are being thought into existence. Esperanto and other IALs are part of this. I speak English natively. There's no reason for me to learn another language, but I do it anyway because it fascinates me. I've even created my own languages with their own unique cultures. Point being, people's fascination with different languages will not abate. New languages and cultures replace the lost ones, just as natural death makes way for new life.

If I understand correctly, the points being made boil down to:

1) We shouldn't have an international language.
2) Instead, we should all learn minority languages.

How exactly does learning minority languages help us in our goal of widespread international communication? Because that IS the goal of many (if not most) Esperantists. Your proposal simply tells us that you think our goal is wrong, and that we should abandon that goal. But there is nothing inherently wrong with wanting to communicate with people of other regions, and your proposal actually stands in the way of doing so. If we each choose to learn one language from out of a fairly large pool of different minority languages, we are severely limiting the pool of people with whom we can practice that language.

You are asking that we communicate less, not more. In effect, you want to make it harder for us to speak to one another.

Since your goals are apparently diametrically opposed to the goals of global communication that we tend to favor, you may find that this audience is not particularly receptive to your suggestions.

edcxjo:Follows a question and an answer I found on Tumblr regarding the Esperanto language and it's movement. I don't know what your thoughts on it might be. I certainly wouldn't know what to say to this person.

«Anonymous asked:
Why do you find the Esperanto movement to be racist and pro-genocide?

The Esperanto movement is racist and pro-genocide because it considers the fact that people speak different languages to be a problem (la lingva problemo - the language problem), and that the solution to this problem is to have everyone learn Esperanto as a second language (the realization of this aim is called by Esperantists la fina venko - the final victory). Esperanto is unquestionably Eurocentric, both lexically and grammatically. For instance, it employs subject-verb-object word order, uses suffixes to denote femininity in words (meaning the default is masculine) and the bulk of its vocabulary is unquestionably Indo-European in origin.

Esperantists constantly promote their language as being “easier” to learn than natural languages. This is only true if the learner’s native language is Indo-European, non-tonal and written with the Latin script. This whole argument is disingenuous at best. How can the Esperanto movement be racist when its whole point is to include all ethnicities in open and neutral linguistic dialogue? The author of this argument seems to be hyper sensitive to issues of race and nationalism

If adopted internationally Esperanto would inevitably come to be an important vehicle of globalization (as the English language has been), it would supplant local languages, particularly those languages which have no literary traditions and it would lead to an erosion of local culture.

In short, Esperantists consider language diversity to be a problem and they consider that the solution to that problem is to have everyone learn their European styled language as a second language. In other words, Esperantists argue for a homogenization of world culture, for a world which is obligingly accessible for white people and white culture, and for a world which caters to white need for convenience.

If that doesn’t sound racist and pro-genocide to you, I don’t know what does.»

This topic is now four pages long and can be argued ad infinitum. IMO, Husaaved has decided to become offended because he is "opposed" to the idea that Esperanto MIGHT someday succeed as an international language. You know, with all the problems our world is facing today, that is a pretty minor issue. It is irrelevant. It is a "manufactured" crisis designed to create conflict.

When all is said and done, I involve myself with Esperanto because I "WANT" to involve myself with it. I "ENJOY" it. I "LIKE" doing it. No one on the face of this earth is "MAKING" me do it. I believe that would apply to all Esperanto afficionados.

I don't talk about it unless someone just happens to ask me about my interests. Then I say that I have several hobbies: reading, learning Esperanto, playing the fiddle, and a few other interests. I don't speak Esperanto very well and I don't play the fiddle very well but I enjoy working at them. That is what is important!

So, if our learning Esperanto causes a problem for Husaaved, I'd say that that is HIS problem. Let him enjoy his martyrdom. Let him make himself unhappy because we choose not to submit to his bullying. Sorry, Husaaved.

Yes, it's pretty obvious that Husaaved isn't much interested in facts or reasoning. I am not sure of the point of coming here to argue the point; if someone doesn't like Esperanto, that's fine, and they shouldn't waste their time with it. As for me, I completely disagree with many movements and organizations, but I don't waste my time (or theirs) going to their online forums to argue with them over why I think they're wrong.

I won't further waste my breath talking with someone who doesn't care to listen. I was foolish to say anything at the start. I'm happy to speak reasonably about different viewpoints with people I disagree with, but anyone who calls somebody's language "racist and pro-genocide" is clearly not interesting in reasonable discussion, and I should have kept out from the start.

For such a worldly bunch you guys don't take awfully well to questions or disagreement, do you? It seems I'm either a troll or I'm not interested in the facts or I'm trying to incite conflict. Cool. Either way, what facts have you shared, Erinja, besides the great time you have at Esperanto events?

I suppose the statistics about language extinction I shared don't interest you much, nor does my experience of not being able to speak confidently with my family due to the nature of language contact. I suppose I should be more interested in the great time you have at Esperanto events. I should realize that if my grandparents and cousins and aunts and uncles just spoke Esperanto, I wouldn't even have that problem, right?

Yeah. As a privileged middle/upper class (which you must be if you have enough extra money that you can afford on plane tickets and hostels or hotel rooms to attend Esperanto events) white woman I didn't expect that you'd have much compassion for the very people and cultures your privilege exploits and erases.

Calling your movement racist and genocidal means I'm not interested in reason, right? Yeah, let's be real for a minute: I don't have the right to call your movement racist and genocidal because that makes you uncomfortable, the same way referring to you as a privileged middle/upper class white woman probably also made you uncomfortable, because I don't have the right to be angry that the stated aims of this movement, if realized, would accelerate the very same process which has separated me from my own family.

To you I'm being unreasonable (and probably even comically so) because you've never thought about race, privilege, or language politics (at least not seriously) from the point of view of the marginalized because you've never had to. You could go every day of your life without ever having to think about race, or having to feel shame trying to talk to your family, or having to worry about anyone seriously suggesting that it might not be so bad if the language of your people just disappeared (but then again because of the color of your skin and your class you probably wouldn't really be that offended at such an idea because the world has for the most part bent over backwards for you - at least compared to everyone but white males - to the point where you couldn't truly understand what it's like to be inconvenienced).

But please, don't get me wrong - I'm glad you have fun at Esperanto events. They sound like a great time to me. Don't let me ruin your fun.