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Using adjectives as verbs

de kinghajj, 2007-oktobro-23

Mesaĝoj: 28

Lingvo: English

T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2007-oktobro-31 16:05:48

I'd have to look this up, but I think there is a subtle difference between, for example, "La ĉielo estas blua" and "La ĉielo bluas." In fact, I'm pretty sure Z. addressed this very point in "Lingvaj Respondoj." As I recall (and I may have this wrong), the difference between the two is similar to the difference between the uses of Spanish vers "ser" and "estar," but not quite. If you say "La ĉielo bluas," you suggest that at the moment the sky is blue, which in turn suggests the possibility that previously it wasn't, or later it won't be, or it wasn't expected to be blue at this time. If you say "La ĉielo estas blua" you may mean exactly the same thing, or you may mean that the sky is normally, by nature, blue. So you wouldn't use "La ĉielo bluas" to describe the normal color of the sky.

You might say, for example, "La ĉielo estas blua, sed hodiaŭ ĝi grizas." You wouldn't say "La ĉielo bluas, sed hodiaŭ ĝi grizas." You'd be contradicting yourself in the latter case.

At least, I think this is the essence of the distinction.

mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2007-oktobro-31 18:57:21

I never heard of this distinction, but you might be certainly right. I would perhaps use "kutime" to differentiate between the two cases.

Frankouche (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-01 12:27:13

In french, we have colour-verbs ruĝi, blui, flavi, verdi, blanki, nigri, grizi, with iĝi sense (arbaj folioj flaviĝas) or rare igi usable sense (blankigi la muron, nigrigi la paperon). To say that something is uselly coloured, we use the verb "esti" + colour.

If i say "li ruĝiĝas" as in eon first lessons, it means : "he is changing to red colour". If the lesson had learned to me "li ruĝas" with the same meaning "iĝi", it would do not matter to me because in french it's the same meaning. But it's not.

So, now, i understand with eon :
La cielo bluas : the sky is uselly blue
La cielo bluiĝas : the sky is going to be blue but is usually from an other colour.

In other languages, if such verbs exist (blui...), it could mean: estas, estis, estos, iĝi, eblas(...) blua.
As i don't like "estaj frazoj", i prefer to use the adjective as verb and precize the meaning with the suffixes, like you all okulumo.gif
But one of my difficulty is "what exactly means the root of the word" and/or "what should be exactly the mean of the word root in eon."

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-01 19:24:33

I would use iĝ to distinguish 'is' from 'is becoming'. So to say 'The sky is blue but is (now) becoming grey' I would say 'La ĉielo estas blua (or bluas) sed ĝi (nun) iĝas griza (or griziĝas).'

Filu (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-01 20:46:29

I feel that even saying "la ĉielo estas blua, sed hodiaŭ ĝi grizas" would somewhat be a contradiction. If the sky is what's up above everything, then it is indeed blue, but if there are clouds, the sky is not grey, but invisible (from our point of view). On the other hand, if the sky is blue but now grew because of cloud cover, then it's wrong to say it is blue to start with... But maybe I'm just penny-pinching senkulpa.gif

On another point discussed earlier, I don't really like the use of a transitive verb to mean the idea of "being + adjectival form of that verb". Is it only me?

"Mi ĝojas", for exemple, doesn't sound right to me. I would be tempted to ask what is being enjoyed. I find the adjectival form of a transitive verb can more elegantly (and possibly more clearly) carry a passive meaning than its verbal counterpart.

On the other hand, no problem with "vi pravas", "ŝi belas", "ĝi bonas", "li sanigeblas", "la biero trinkeblas" ...

mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-01 21:14:49

Filu:"Mi ĝojas", for exemple, doesn't sound right to me. I would be tempted to ask what is being enjoyed.
"Mi ĝojas" means more or less "I am joyous", "I am ecstatic", and it can be used by itself. You are perhaps thinking about "Mi ĝuas", which means "I enjoy", and is usually followed by an object. "Mi gxuas la koncerton", I am enjoying (I enjoy) the concert.

Frankouche (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-01 21:20:22

So the root of the adjective-verb "blu-, prav-, bel-, bon-..." would mean the present, immediate state of the subject?

That's strange to think that there are suffixes for others states "igxi, ebl..." but not for the immediate state.

BasCostBudde (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-01 22:23:52

T0dd:I'd have to look this up, but I think there is a subtle difference between, for example, "La ĉielo estas blua" and "La ĉielo bluas."
I have done no looking up to verify, just sharing my experience and little understanding here.

"la cxielo estas blua", for presence of estas, is verbal in nature, and thus indicates an action-like expression, not unlike the imperfect in english: the sky is being blue (at this moment). "la cxielo bluas" indicates a state-like expression, as in the sky [generally] blues.

I made a parallel here to the use of igx, where the distinction is more visible.

annadahlqvist (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-03 01:17:58

"la ĉielo estas blua", for presence of estas, is verbal in nature, and thus indicates an action-like expression, not unlike the imperfect in english: the sky is being blue (at this moment). "la ĉielo bluas" indicates a state-like expression, as in the sky [generally] blues.
I find all this a bit strange, in my language, swedish, I think it is just the opposite. We do not use it for colour of the sky, but as in the example of "estas ĝoja"/"ĝojas" (är glad/glädjs), the first could mean both a characteristic of a person and present mode, but the second certainly an action.

T0dd (Montri la profilon) 2007-novembro-03 03:01:45

Well, I've checked in PMEG PMEG on 'esti' and there's no comment on any general rule about this. In some cases, Zamenhof himself used adjectives as verbs ("kuraĝas" instead of "esti kuraĝa"), although in other cases it doesn't work. So, until I find some definitive source, I'm going to withdraw my opinion that there's a subtle distinction between "estas blua" and "bluas".

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