Hozzászólások: 34
Nyelv: English
EldanarLambetur (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 17. 10:38:08
sudanglo:Isn't it a bit illogical to say that something is pli vera or malpli vera?True! But I think it's logical to say that some thing is more "true-seeming" than another thing. There are degrees of "seeming" (ŝajni) according to how much evidence is present for the truth.
Altebrilas (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 17. 19:30:57
sudanglo:... I wonder why you should think it undesirable that there should be differences in register in Esperanto.It is desirable to be able to evoke registers of different social classes, e.g. in a novel, but it is also desirable that esperantists do not use them to communicate with eachother
...For instance pi=3.1416 is "pli vera ol" pi=3.14
Isn't it a bit illogical to say that something is pli vera or malpli vera?
EldanarLambetur (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 17. 20:22:50
Altebrilas:For instance pi=3.1416 is "pli vera ol" pi=3.14Though here both are false; they are approximations. I wouldn't say you could have degrees of true like that.
Citronujo (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 17. 21:13:49
For example :
"With better equipment and more care we can narrow the range of scatter, and therefore improve our estimates of average values, confident that we are approaching "true" values more and more closely."
https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/errorman/m...
Rugxdoma (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 17. 23:38:37
Citronujo:Yet it's a common way by which Mathematicians/physicists are writing : They are approaching the "truth" more closely by adding numbers after the decimal point (or "decreasing the error")Yes, it is the closeness that has degrees, not the truth. And the sxajneco may have degrees even when the vero doesn't.
For example :
"With better equipment and more care we can narrow the range of scatter, and therefore improve our estimates of average values, confident that we are approaching "true" values more and more closely."
https://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/errorman/m...
sudanglo (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 18. 8:56:48
There are degrees of "seeming" (ŝajni) according to how much evidence is present for the truth.So Eldanar, doesn't this then confirm my original suggestion about the difference between probable and verŝajne -ie that verŝajne trails with it the idea of evidence.
Verŝajne - it looks like, it is reasonable to suppose from the circumstances.
Probable is concerned with chance (more or less likely) not necessarily based on evidence (other than statistical). It is more speculative.
Statistics from the Tekstaro are not likely to be so helpful here since the use of 'probable' is relatively recent, occurring only in more modern texts, and it is possible that verŝajne was originally made to double up in its meaning extending to cover what is just probable or has a certain chance.
Probable mi estos ĉi tie ankaŭ morgaŭ (there's a good chance)
Verŝajne mi estos ĉi tie ankaŭ morgaŭ (this is closer to apparently)
Edit: the first occurrence of probable in the Tekstaro is in 1978 (John Wells) and seems to me to be very much in the spirit of a speculation.
...estas universale tre probable, ke la indikilo de la pluralo staras inter la radikalo kaj la indikilo de la akuzativo
Altebrilas (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 18. 9:24:40
EldanarLambetur:Probably nobody knows the absolute truth, except God, for believers. So in everyday life "pli vera" means "closer to the truth".Altebrilas:For instance pi=3.1416 is "pli vera ol" pi=3.14Though here both are false; they are approximations. I wouldn't say you could have degrees of true like that.
Altebrilas (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 18. 9:29:37
- Kio estas verŝajna, sed ne probabla ?
- Kio estas probabla , sed ne verŝajna ?
EldanarLambetur (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 18. 9:30:55
sudanglo:So Eldanar, doesn't this then confirm my original suggestion about the difference between probable and verŝajne -ie that verŝajne trails with it the idea of evidence.It certainly seems that way!
Citronujo (Profil megtekintése) 2014. szeptember 18. 10:22:23
Rugxdoma:Yes, it is the closeness that has degrees, not the truth. And the sxajneco may have degrees even when the vero doesn't.Okay, I agree. Probably it is easier for people in everyday to say "it's more true than that one" than "its closeness to the truth is bigger than that one's".
