Messages : 52
Langue: English
jdwinger (Voir le profil) 20 septembre 2014 18:50:20
Mi studas Bildoj kaj demandoj : Bildo 6.3
That's about all I have, so back to English for now (thank you for letting me practice - corrections are, of course, super welcome! especially as mi estas monoglot)
Does Esperanto have a plural second person pronoun (a "you all" in addition to a singular "you" )?
or does "vi" function both singularly AND plurally?
from the bildo I get the impression is functions both ways.
Thank you for reading and thank you for the resources.
I am only a couple of days into it, but am enjoying my time
sergejm (Voir le profil) 20 septembre 2014 19:04:31
mbalicki (Voir le profil) 20 septembre 2014 19:25:02
However, some people felt the lack of the distinction between singular and plural second-person pronoun (not only in speech, but also when translating works from languages, which have this distinction), therefore Zamenhof introduced singular ci, which is equivalent to “thou” in English, till Early Modern English. Different people use it now in different way; it can be used:
(1) when translating from languages, which have got the T–V distinction,
(2) when translating ancient or old works,
(3) to add the feeling of antiquity,
(4) as a sign of informality or intimacy,
(5) as a sign of lack of respect,
(6) as a neutral singular second-person pronoun, never using vi in such case.
But in fact, singular ci is hardly ever used in Esperanto; google search suggests it appears only once for every 200 occurrences of vi.
jdwinger (Voir le profil) 20 septembre 2014 20:39:21
Being a US redneck (south eastern US) English speaker, I use y'all, but the status as a contraction is only to non-native rednecks much as how "I-am-going-to-drink-this-6-pack-all-by-myself" is also a single word in US redneck English
I'm only half kidding, yall is a somewhat idiomatic (not actively treated as a contraction of "you all" ) colloquialism where I grew up.
I suspect it did cultivate that sense of distinction between singular/plural that doesn't exist in standard modern English. Hence the question.
But again, thank you - I very much appreciate the explanations with full context.
It is very helpful to me.
mbalicki (Voir le profil) 20 septembre 2014 21:02:32
Regarding “y'all” (or “you guys”): I never quite understood it. If you feel like using T–V distinction, then why won't you (general and plural “you”, this time
) use already existing “thou” for singular, rather than contraction or two words? 
If three different forms “thou–thee–thy” (as “I–me–my” or old “ye–you–your”) and different verb ending “-st” is not pleasing to you, then you can adapt some version of Quaker Plain Speech: e.g. verbs equal to the third person and two forms “thee–thee–thy” (as “he–he–his” or modern “you–you–your”). Since thee says, thee already feels and sometimes needs that distinction, then it may be an option for thee!
robbkvasnak (Voir le profil) 20 septembre 2014 21:41:01
jdwinger (Voir le profil) 20 septembre 2014 23:01:16
mbalicki:Ne dankinde!well, for the modern redneck (I think that's a magazine) yall IS already existing and is only a contraction in the etymological sense
Regarding “y'all” (or “you guys”): I never quite understood it. If you feel like using T–V distinction, then why won't you (general and plural “you”, this time
consider The you+all linking in y'all like the American 12 oz (0.35l) beer. While the packaging APPEARS individualized, they are to be used in integrated pairs...offering merely a single beer to a US redneck is not only poor form but, much like monatomic (ie free radical) oxygen, leads to very unstable and potentially dangerous conditions!
mbalicki (Voir le profil) 20 septembre 2014 23:08:49
jdwinger:consider The you+all linking in y'all like the American 12 oz beer. While the packaging APPEARS individualized, they are to be used in integrated pairs...offering merely a single beer to a US redneck is not only poor form but, much like monatomic (ie free radical) oxygen, leads to very unstable and potentially dangerous conditions!Until now I thought these redneck jokes were just stereotypes, spreading because of the free access to YouTube, where those who match the stereotype can get viral.
But now you gave me a whole new perspective on this subject!
nornen (Voir le profil) 21 septembre 2014 00:45:10
Once upon a time the English had a clear distinction between singular thou and plural ye. Then they merged both. So far nothing exceptional. But then arose again the need to make a distinction and new forms like y'all came to life. And the merge was split again. A linguistic roundtrip. These things is what makes studying languages so interesting.
I guess (maybe someone could comment on this guess) the V-T merge was caused by the usage of ye for single persons as a pluralis maiestatis. And suddenly everybody was a lord or a lady and the singular noun came out of use.
So now the English "you" maps to three distinct pronouns in German (du, ihr, Sie[1]) and to three (tú, usted, ustedes) or four (tú, vos, usted, ustedes[2]) or five (tú, usted, vosotros, vosotras, ustedes) pronouns in Spanish. That's efficiency.
What has caused the death of "ci"?
----
[1] In German there is no distinction between the singular and plural of the formal pronoun[3]. Except around the river Mosel. They lost completely the plural formal pronoun and code-switch to informal speech: "Was essen Sie? Und was essen Sie? Und was trinkt Ihr?" But the Trierer people are strange to say the least. They regularly use neutral pronouns for women ("Et Maria sein Pap" = "Der Maria ihr Vater" = "Marias Vater" ), although they use female pronouns for inanimate nouns of female gender.
[2] With a total of five possible agreements: tú haces, tú hacés, vos hacés, usted hace and ustedes hacen.
[3] Which is exactly the opposite of what has happened in America. They lost the informal plural pronouns nosotros, nosotras and only use the formal ustedes. Linguistic development can take every possible turn.
orthohawk (Voir le profil) 21 septembre 2014 03:01:45
mbalicki:Ne dankinde!Some of us do exactly what thee suggests (even if thee WAS just joking).
Regarding “y'all” (or “you guys”): I never quite understood it. If you feel like using T–V distinction, then why won't you (general and plural “you”, this time
If three different forms “thou–thee–thy” (as “I–me–my” or old “ye–you–your”) and different verb ending “-st” is not pleasing to you, then you can adapt some version of Quaker Plain Speech: e.g. verbs equal to the third person and two forms “thee–thee–thy” (as “he–he–his” or modern “you–you–your”). Since thee says, thee already feels and sometimes needs that distinction, then it may be an option for thee!