Nationalism has a way of oppressing others.
- Noam Chomsky -

Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
- Albert Einstein -

Pervading nationalism imposes its dominion on man today in many different forms and with an aggressiveness that spares no one. The challenge that is already with us is the temptation to accept as true freedom what in reality is only a new form of slavery.
- Pope John Paul II -

All of nationalism can be understood as a kind of collective narcissism.
- Geoff Mulgan -

Could we get away from all the flag-waving of liberal credentials and return to the issue that I was trying to raise. In broad brush terms it would be this.

There appears to have been something about the Zeitgeist of the late 19th century that made people receptive to the idea of a purpose-built interlingvo.

That this was a period when the peoples of Europe felt strongly about their own cultures may not be the essential causal factor in making Esperanto (and previously Volapük) seem like a good idea.

In today's world it is trendy (even 'de rigueur' in some quarters) to embrace multi-culturalism, though the emergence of UKIP in the UK, the National Front in France, and other political parties in other parts of Europe suggest a significant proportion of people have got fed up with prevailing atmosphere of censorship in which the freedom to pass judgement on certain groups is curtailed by the fear of being condemned as racist (an often misapplied term).

And in today's world, it is not obvious that the 19th century enthusiasms which supported the emergence of Esperanto are replicated.

Again this may have nothing to do with the embracing of multi-culturalism. I have merely asked whether their might be a connection

Esperantists can have little effect on the Zeigeist. What we can do, however, is influence the public image of Esperanto, and if we can identify those factors which are more in harmony with the mood of the times, and which also may favourably influence attitudes towards Esperanto, and make these part of our propaganda, then this is likely to be a good thing for Esperanto.

kaŝperanto:

Elhana2:

kaŝperanto:"Russia’s law prohibiting “the promotion of non-traditional sexual relationships,” better known as the “gay propaganda law,” was passed last summer.

Please quote the actual law instead of sensationalist articles.
The homosexualism propaganda law does not discriminate gays in any way. There is no law which restrict their rights basing on their sexual orientation.

Tell me where they lie here so I may be better informed:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_LGBT_propagan...

Looks like discrimination to me, if it isn't also illegal to promote standard sexual relationships.

Elhana said to quote THE LAW, not an article ABOUT the law.

Tempodivalse:Anyone care to return to the initial topic of this thread?

I would say that the answer to the question of the thread is "No", insofar as Esperanto historically has been regarded by strong nationalists with suspicion, whether German, Russian, Greek or Italian. It is internationalist by nature and intent.

That said, sometimes an individual nation may decide to support Esperanto. Thus Ayatollah Khomeini supported Esperanto at first. I understand that he became less enthusiastic later on, though the Esperanto movement remains in Iran to this day, and in fact an Iranian signed my certificate on passing international examinations at the UK in Rotterdam. In China the government has published books in Esperanto. So far, so good.

So it may be that because of the internationalist influence of Esperanto in countries which do not have easy relations, Esperanto might achieve a breakthrough in the field of international diplomacy some day. Wait and see.

orthohawk:Elhana said to quote THE LAW, not an article ABOUT the law.

It is naive to just look at the text of the law without seeing how it is applied. Remember the policy of "separate but equal" in the US?

Being a homosexual in Russia won't get you in to the same kind of trouble as in Uganda, but there is still a widespread, deep-rooted cultural discomfort with homosexuality that seriously affects legislation and the ways laws are enforced.

sudanglo:What we can do, however, is influence the public image of Esperanto, and if we can identify those factors which are more in harmony with the mood of the times, and which also may favourably influence attitudes towards Esperanto, and make these part of our propaganda, then this is likely to be a good thing for Esperanto.

At first blush this sounds like what politicians do - put your finger in the air, find out where the wind of public sentiment is blowing, and change or shape your (stated) opinions accordingly.

Elhana2:

kaŝperanto:Looks like discrimination to me, if it isn't also illegal to promote standard sexual relationships.

Is the prohibition of drug advertizement also discrimination, in your vein of thought?

What? Why would this be relevant?

orthohawk:
Elhana said to quote THE LAW, not an article ABOUT the law.

As far as I'm concerned any Wikipedia article linking to additional sources is far better than you will get in most internet sources, and Wikipedia is not a "sensationalist article", and I would argue it is more than an "article" as well.
I politely asked to be informed as to whether the quoted translations of the law are incorrect. I highly doubt that the translation is innacurate, but I will certainly welcome correction if I am wrong. Arguing "that's not what the law says" is not constructive, and claiming it does not say something bears no less burden of proof than claiming it does.

Since I am being held to the higher standard, here we go:

"Статья 7_1. Публичные действия, направленные на пропаганду мужеложства, лесбиянства, бисексуализма, трансгендерности среди несовершеннолетних

Публичные действия, направленные на пропаганду мужеложства, лесбиянства, бисексуализма, трансгендерности среди несовершеннолетних, влекут наложение административного штрафа на граждан в размере пяти тысяч рублей; на должностных лиц - пятидесяти тысяч рублей; на юридических лиц - от двухсот пятидесяти тысяч до пятисот тысяч рублей.

Примечание. Под публичными действиями, направленными на пропаганду мужеложства, лесбиянства, бисексуализма, трансгендерности среди несовершеннолетних, в настоящей статье следует понимать деятельность по целенаправленному и бесконтрольному распространению общедоступным способом информации, способной нанести вред здоровью, нравственному и духовному развитию несовершеннолетних, в том числе сформировать у них искаженные представления о социальной равноценности традиционных и нетрадиционных брачных отношений.

Google Translate tells me this means:

"Article 7_1. Public actions aimed at propaganda of sodomy, lesbianism, bisexuality, transgenderism among minors

Public actions aimed at propaganda of sodomy, lesbianism, bisexuality, transgenderism among minors, punishable by an administrative fine on citizens in the amount of five thousand rubles; for officials - fifty thousand rubles; for legal entities - from two hundred fifty thousand to five hundred thousand rubles.

Note. Under public actions aimed at propaganda of sodomy, lesbianism, bisexuality, transgenderism among minors, in this article should be understood activities targeted and uncontrolled dissemination of information available to the public way that might harm health, moral and spiritual development of minors, including their distorted form notions of social equivalence of traditional and non-traditional marital relationship.

I would say Wikipedia's coverage is in no way sensationalist.

Elhana2:

kaŝperanto:Why would this be relevant?

Drug addiction is harmful for society. Homosexualism is harmful for society, too: the half of HIV-positive men is USA are homo- or bisexual. Advertizement of practices which are harmful for society is prohibited by law, it is not a 'discrimination'.
The only acceptable homosexual practice, i.e. between consenting adults, does not involve minors (which are the only subject of this law) in any way, so it is hard to see this law as 'discrimination' of anyone.

Ha! Nice try with the April fools post. Very funny.

I almost believed you were serious. You really had me going!

sudanglo:
A sort of woolly-minded liberal multi-cultural cosmopolitanism emerged. It became de rigueur not to say certain things even if you thought them.

Now we are seeing a reaction against this in the form of UKIP in the UK, the National Front in France and nationalistic movements in other parts of Europe.

Is it better for Esperanto when there is a strong sense of national identity, or is liberal cosmopolitanism a brake on the idea of a culturally neutral, easy to learn, interlingvo?

A distinction could first be established between nationalism and imperialism. As you cite France and UK, historically it's particularly important. For example, in 1922 France voted against Esperanto in the League of Nations, and had active campaigns against it[1]. Well at the time French was an active imperialist domination tool, just like English nowadays.

But it doesn't allow to conclude that nationalism is necessarily a barrier for an "interlingvo". Probably you may find more relevant information for your inquiry in studies of nationalism impact in international case.

[1] (fr) La France contre l’espéranto