Cfail0814:I don't want to live in a world where everyone is the same, let's all hold hands and sing kumbayya.

I'm don't think this is a fair representation of cosmopolitanism, and I don't think most Esperantists have this kind of ideal.

Cosmopolitanism is not about mass conformity, but rather about showing respect and realising that other cultures and their members are not somehow inherently inferior to one's own, just because they're different or unfamiliar. (Nationalism, broadly defined, does not necessarily have this attitude, but often tends in that direction by making an "us vs. them" distinction.)

I'd also like to reiterate that "nationalism" and "cosmopolitanism" historically do not correlate reliably with "right-wing" or "left-wing".

Tempodivalse:Cosmopolitanism is not about mass conformity, but rather about showing respect and realising that other cultures and their members are not somehow inherently inferior to one's own, just because they're different or unfamiliar.

Patriotism also can manifest oneself like cosmopolitianism even if it lacks national self-criticism.

Tempodivalse:(Nationalism, broadly defined, does not necessarily have this attitude, but often tends in that direction by making an "us vs. them" distinction.)

Such called subcultures often make this 'us versus them' distinction. But its not possible to state some conlang community like Esperanto to some i.e. music style subculture only i.e. like Punk rebellion etc. Nowadays as far as nationalism is not promoted by government (directly), nationalism remains subculture niche expression.

Oh, spreecamper, you have apparently not been in the USA. Nationalism is second nature here. It is so ingrained in the culture that people don't even notice it. There is this strange belief in Manifest Destiny and American Exceptionalism and then the stupid "Pledge" to the flag with which they start even most banal of meetings, and the omnipresent flags and national colors. Yuck! Already when I was a kid it turned me off.

spreecamper:Nowadays as far as nationalism is not promoted by government (directly), nationalism remains subculture niche expression.

I would hardly call US 'nationalism' a subculture expression. Have you ever watched the charades that go on before a NASCAR race, for example? Big bombers flying overhead to celebrate the US' military power, pop stars singing the national anthem to standing ovations, red white and blue flags and banners flying everywhere ... It's very deeply rooted in the culture. A high-profile politician's patriotism could be questioned if he shows up to a campaign event without a little flag on his lapel.

Then there is the inevitable religious element, i.e., "Our country will always be on God's side, we are the best" - rhetoric familiar not only to the US, but many other countries with high percentages of believers (and historically to the British, Russian, German Empires, among others, which were hardly "cosmopolitan" ).

Perhaps nationalism is no longer "directly" promoted as in, obviously propagandistic banners (like "Communism is the world's youth" in huge letters on top of buildings in Soviet Moscow), but it is still quite perceptible in many countries.

Spreecamper is writing about Germany. In his country there is a conscious effort to downplay nationalism, though the last time I was there I did see small German flags on some cars - that was never so before when I lived there. There are no German flags in classrooms and they do not have anything like the Pledge. The most 'patriotic' forms on display are when the national football team is playing in the World Cup.

I have been thinking about this a lot. It is an interesting question. I think that I can conclude by saying that nationalism is harmful for Esperanto in most cases.

If Esperanto is associated with being high class then both nationalist and non-nationalists will learn it. Just like people are learning English regardless of their level of nationalism.

In its current form, Esperanto will not be popular among nationalists because it is out of the norm. Nationalists support the dominant culture of their country, and so Esperanto would be marginalised with everything else that is out of the norm.

I think you will have a stronger Esperanto movement in NY rather than Texas.

Tempodivalse:Have you ever watched the charades that go on before a NASCAR race, for example? Big bombers flying overhead to celebrate the US' military power, pop stars singing the national anthem to standing ovations, red white and blue flags and banners flying everywhere ... It's very deeply rooted in the culture.

German army Bundeswehr is not allowed to do similar show of force inside Germany. Basic Law for the Federal Republic of Germany 'Grundgesetz' very strictly regulate that kind of 'Inlandseinsätze' to minimum necessity.

Tempodivalse:A high-profile politician's patriotism could be questioned if he shows up to a campaign event without a little flag on his lapel.

Well, I don't know why but even politicians of AfD don't do that. Simply after 1945 patriotism is not much rooted in Germany. Sure some sport events are best chance to sell patriotic branded products like t-shirts, black-red-gold flag caps for car rear mirrors etc. But excluding t-shirts often that black-red-gold decoration are not made of long-life quality. Mostly weather finishes that black-red-gold decoration very fast. In daily life black-red-gold decoration doesn't matter. Vehicle registration plates of Germany creates much more city-bounded idenity than any national black-red-gold (soccer game) decoration is capable of. Only car plates of German army Bundeswehr carries national black-red-gold decoration.

Tempodivalse:Then there is the inevitable religious element, i.e., "Our country will always be on God's side, we are the best"...

If it makes them happy than let them dream further 'air castle' constructions.

robbkvasnak:The most 'patriotic' forms on display are when the national football team is playing in the World Cup.

You're right.

Alkanadi:Nationalists support the dominant culture of their country, and so Esperanto would be marginalised with everything else that is out of the norm.

In my opinion nationalism is most cynical form of patriotism. Furthermore nationalism relate to aggressive annihilation which for sure will provoke counter aggression. Research Germany's history to see how strictly most German marks outside Germany were erasured after Nazi-Germany sink into ruin in 1945. In my opinion full let out nationalism is assisted nation's suicide.

Nationalists support the dominant culture of their country, and so Esperanto would be marginalised with everything else that is out of the norm.I think you will have a stronger Esperanto movement in NY rather than Texas.

Yet on the other hand, I see support for Esperanto in the UK much weaker in London (a city that may be the most cosmopolitan in the world and where 200 languages are spoken) than in other parts of the UK where there is far less 'diversity'.

It may be that where the indigenous culture is weakest (or most threatened) that the population is least likely to favour an outward looking movement, such as the Esperanto movement.

A simple test might be to compare the number of Esperantists per head of the non-immigrant population in Scotland (where the Scottish Nationalist Party is expected to take almost all the seats in the coming general election) with the number of Esperantists per head of the non-immigrant population in London.

It is possible, isn't it, that it is when you are most confident in your own culture, when that feels least threatened, that you are prepared to view more positively a language purpose-built for inter-cultural communication.

Or to put it another way, when you see cultural differences more clearly, and don't see yourself as part of some wishy-washy multi-cultural mess, then the idea of an inter-cultural language makes more sense.

sudanglo:
It is possible, isn't it, that it is when you are most confident in your own culture, when that feels least threatened, that you are prepared to view more positively a language purpose-built for inter-cultural communication.

Or to put it another way, when you see cultural differences more clearly, and don't see yourself as part of some wishy-washy multi-cultural mess, then the idea of an inter-cultural language makes more sense.

It seems to me that you would see cultural differences more clearly when you are in a "multi-cultural mess", compared to when you are in a culturally homogeneous society, and everyone tends to believe the same things, look the same way, talk the same way.

I also don't see how a cosmopolitan (e.g., "melting pot" ) society necessarily threatens individual cultures. Could you expound on that point a little?

I will venture to say a lot of people don't weaken or dilute their self-identification with a particular culture just because there are many other cultures nearby. Where I live, I can hear a dozen different languages spoken on the streets, and young white women in tank tops and short-shorts walk on the same sidewalks as men with Sikh headdress and Moslem women in full burqa (all three are a fairly common sight). It seems to me that these cultures are still preserving themselves quite well, despite such a high level of interaction with other cultures.