Príspevky: 82
Jazyk: English
sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 24. marca 2015 13:10:44
In the UK, sometime in the 80's or 90's of the 20th century, it began to be the prevailing norm to frown on seeing other people's languages, religion, and customs as inferior or misguided.
A sort of woolly-minded liberal multi-cultural cosmopolitanism emerged. It became de rigueur not to say certain things even if you thought them.
Now we are seeing a reaction against this in the form of UKIP in the UK, the National Front in France and nationalistic movements in other parts of Europe.
Is it better for Esperanto when there is a strong sense of national identity, or is liberal cosmopolitanism a brake on the idea of a culturally neutral, easy to learn, interlingvo?
It is very striking for me that in London where some 200 languages are spoken, and you might think that the Esperanto movement would be strong, the London Esperanto club is a shadow of its former self in the 60's, when I first visited it.
In other words, when you see foreigners as truly foreign, does this make the idea of Esperanto more attractive? Has the Esperanto movement got its cart before the horse?
Is Esperanto more attractive as a neutral ground on which to interact when other cultures are seen as opposed to one own's culture, rather than when one's own and other cultures are viewed, in some vague sense, as part of an amorphous multi-cultural environment?
Xavierrense (Zobraziť profil) 24. marca 2015 15:09:48
Vi starigis dilemo kio ne estas vera. La kontraŭa de naci-supereco ne estas la sennaciismo, tio estas internaciismo.
tommjames (Zobraziť profil) 24. marca 2015 16:24:04
Is Esperanto more attractive when other cultures are seen as opposed to one own's cultureI don't think so no. I suspect the reverse is true, and that the inculcation of more tolerant or liberal social attitudes over the last 50 years probably helps advance Esperanto's cause to some degree. In general I see Esperanto as having less appeal for people of the kind of old-guard, xenophobic disposition that seeks to judge and insist on the freedom to pour scorn on whomever they judge as "inferior" or "misguided". But, thankfully, those attitudes are on the wane nowadays (notwithstanding the ephemeral rise of far-right nutters like UKIP and the National Front), so in terms of the shifting social zeitgeist things don't seem to bode too badly for Esperanto.
kaŝperanto (Zobraziť profil) 24. marca 2015 16:50:11
Tempodivalse (Zobraziť profil) 24. marca 2015 19:43:30
In any case, it seems to me that the former often tends to creep into the latter. Patriotism is, after all, the last refuge of the scoundrel (or is it the first?).
Contrast this to Esperanto, which aims to equalise, level the playing field, at least language-wise, between nations and cultures.
So it seems at first glance that nationalism (defined fairly broadly) and Esperanto are somewhat at odds.
sudanglo (Zobraziť profil) 25. marca 2015 12:13:35
But think about it!
How do you explain the prima facie paradox, if being an Esperantist commits you to viewing 'all languages and peoples are equal', that Esperanto was successfully launched at a time when the sense of different identity among the nations was well developed. Equally one could point to the momentum that the Esperanto movement had in the inter-war years.
It may be more profitable to emphasise that Esperanto provides a sort of culturally neutral no-man's land where opposing tribes may interact, rather than attaching to Esperanto some liberal philosophy about the equal worth of all cultures.
And Tom, in France the National Front recently received 25% of the vote. All nutters? It remains to be seen what percentage of the vote UKIP will get in the forthcoming elections in the UK, but it looks as though it won't be insignificant.
It seems to me that current Zeitgeist across Europe is against some wishy-washy notion of multi-culturalism that imposes from on high kow-towing to the idea that we should not voice the slightest criticism of other cultures.
tommjames (Zobraziť profil) 25. marca 2015 13:11:39
sudanglo:How do you explain the prima facie paradox, if being an Esperantist commits you to viewing 'all languages and peoples are equal'I'm not sure that being an Esperantist commits you to that specific proposition. But it seems to me that Esperanto does "hold equality at it's heart", so to speak. IMO that gives it greater appeal to people of a more progressive mindset, than your conservative old-school types who want to cling onto the good old days when it was acceptable to use casual racial slurs, gender stereotypes, look down on Jonny foreigner etc without the fear of being condemned by anybody.
sudanglo:in France the National Front recently received 25% of the vote. All nutters?The comment was directed at the party, not their supporters.
sudanglo:some wishy-washy notion of multi-culturalism that imposes from on high kow-towing to the idea that we should not voice the slightest criticism of other cultures.There is a difference between outright suppression of any criticism at all (something that's not actually happening, and thus irrelevant) and what's really going on, which is a gradual progression towards more tolerant and inclusive viewpoints within society at large.
Alkanadi (Zobraziť profil) 25. marca 2015 13:57:02
the London Esperanto club is a shadow of its former self in the 60's, when I first visited it.I think the inactive Esperanto clubs are just like other inactive clubs. Clubs and groups used to be the cool thing to do. I heard that after WWII, people really wanted a feeling of brotherhood. Now, people want to watch TV, work on personal projects, open businesses, focus on self improvement, ect. All clubs and religious groups have shrunk dramatically. Just look at any club. They are all desperate for members.
Do you know of any clubs that are well attended? I don't know of any.
As a general rule of thumb, I would say that nationalism is hurtful for Esperanto. Esperanto promotes internationalism rather than nationalism. Hitler and Stalin oppressed Esperanto speakers because it didn't align with their nationalistic goals.
An international movement is bad for a national movement.
Alkanadi (Zobraziť profil) 25. marca 2015 14:04:45
sudanglo:Yes, you have all waved your Liberal credentials in the air. Quelle surprise!Until Esperanto offers visibly tangible benefits, I can only assume that most people who learn Esperanto will be liberals.
Cfail0814 (Zobraziť profil) 25. marca 2015 15:17:20