May I ask, why do we need gender pronouns at all? Gender isn't nearly as important as our language make it out to be. Why do we need gender orientated pronouns and titles at all?

I propose that instead of adding 'ri' as a gender neuter pronoun, we get rid of 'li' and use 'sxi' as a pronoun for all genders. This simplifies the language, doesn't contradict the Fundamento and doesn't alienate queergender individuals.

I looked it up. It's official, but not mainstream. It's also meant as a replacement for he/she to try eliminate domination of one over the other... it sounds suspiciously like feminist claptrap. The more interesting point is that English already uses 'they' as a singular when not referring specifically to he and she.

I'm very empathetic to transgender issues. I don't really see the creation of a vague special pronoun all that helpful when transgender, and the plethora of other terms used, are not always clear.

Red_Rat_Writer:May I ask, why do we need gender pronouns at all? Gender isn't nearly as important as our language make it out to be. Why do we need gender orientated pronouns and titles at all?

To not inconvenience West European speakers, who are accustomed to their use.
There was even a stereotype depiction of Finnish/Estonian accent in the past where the speaker would call everyone as 'she' regardless of their sex.
I don't think Europeans would ever abandon them in favor of a common pronoun.

novatago:
You don't like, just give up.

No. I'm here whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

I think it is a bit sad, that leporinjo followed novatago's advice.
She contributed to this forum.

Maybe if we stopped telling people to leave lernu, less would leave. Just an idea.

Tempodivalse:Also. Congratulations on getting to almost 100 messages in under 24 hours. The vortludoj threads are slower! I can see what the hot-button issues are on this forum

Also, @orthohawk, the nominative is surely thou and not thee, unless you're speaking in the rural British-English dialect, which would have tha... (Ever heard Bill Owens on "Last of the Summer Wine"?)

Well, the nominative of the 2nd plural pronoun is surely "ye" and not "you", so.......

Anyway as I have stated numerous times here (and as is fairly well known outside of Lernu for such an esoteric use) "thee" plus what is now the third person singular is normative in Plain Speech (even though it's a rare Quaker any more that still uses it, at least in public with non-Quakers).

nornen:

novatago:
You don't like, just give up.

No. I'm here whether you like it or not. Deal with it.

I think it is a bit sad, that leporinjo followed novatago's advice.
She contributed to this forum.

Maybe if we stopped telling people to leave lernu, less would leave. Just an idea.

I don't know. The way I read zir final post, it sounded as though there was some hostile ("vile" in zir terms) words directed at the transgender community in this thread. As I don't remember anything particularly vile in any of the posts, I can only assume that the offensive post was immediately deleted. If that was the case, it's too bad zi didn't stick around to "see" the deletion.

orthohawk:
I don't know. The way I read zir final post, it sounded as though there was some hostile ("vile" in zir terms) words directed at the transgender community in this thread.

1guy1:There is already a thread about reform and someone deciding he is going to use a couple of extra pronouns (I didn't read the details as it is all so tedious and utterly boring). Hilarious!

Adding extra pronouns to accommodate queers is hilarious. Not offensive but a bit inconsiderate.

novatago:And all just because a personal like or dislike, or because the great lie about esperanto being sexist.

Disregards sexism. Sums up not having pronoun as 'personal dislike'.

jean-luc:La fundamento is pretty clear on the topic, ĝi must be used as a pronoun when the gender isn't known

Person suggesting we refer to queers as 'it'.

jean-luc:why would you need a third gender and not 3000 ?

I don't know what she's talking about, but it's offensive.

jean-luc:I'm not forcing anyone to do anything. I just show that a neutral pronoun already exists in experanto. If some special snowflakes aren't happy with that, I could not care less.

Suddenly queers are 'special snowflakes'. This is offensive.

Bemused:Fortunately. there is a solution. Forget Esperanto, learn Ido. Ido delivers what Esperanto only promises, a symmetrical, gender free, easy to learn language.

Person suggesting that instead of making a little accommodation to recognize queers, they should just leave the community.

Tempodivalse:Sexism, at least in the way we normally think of it, is a feature of content, or semantics. What you say in the language can be sexist or not sexist.

First off, she has been rather considerate and intelligent on this thread however this point she made is a bit ignorante. IE, what if the word for husband was 'domregxo' and the word for wife was 'domsklavo'. People using them aren't necessarily sexist, but I think we agree to change the words.

Alkanadi:If it looks like a man, then say Li
If it looks like a woman, then say Sxi

Maybe, if someone wants to be called Ri because they are complicated, then just be nice and call them Ri, or if you hate that, then just call them by their name.

The point she was making is not offensive and is rather a good rule to follow, but it had a sarcastic tone with the word 'complicated'.

Kirilo: I find it utterly narcistic to come up to someone and say "Hi, I'm XY, please use for me the pronoun [insert invented 3rd person pronoun here]". Heck, should I make a list of my LGBT friends who likes which pronoun?

*facepalm*

__________________

I would also like to point out that as a queer, this has really turned me off from the community.

Red_Rat_Writer:

Bemused:Fortunately. there is a solution. Forget Esperanto, learn Ido. Ido delivers what Esperanto only promises, a symmetrical, gender free, easy to learn language.

Person suggesting that instead of making a little accommodation to recognize queers, they should just leave the community.

I would also like to point out that as a queer, this has really turned me off from the community.

I am sorry you took it this way, and apologise for any offence you may have felt was directed toward you.
I did not mean to denigrate any persons choice regarding their sexual orientation.
What I meant was that Esperanto seems to be so rigidly locked into 19th century patriarchal terminology that people might prefer to leave it for a language which does not have those problems, namely Ido.
I myself am now learning Ido having abandoned any hope that Esperanto will advance into the 21st century during my lifetime.

Red_Rat_Writer:

Kirilo: I find it utterly narcistic to come up to someone and say "Hi, I'm XY, please use for me the pronoun [insert invented 3rd person pronoun here]". Heck, should I make a list of my LGBT friends who likes which pronoun?

*facepalm*

__________________

I would also like to point out that as a queer, this has really turned me off from the community.

I won't take back my personal opinion, but I'm sorry that the ironic tone has probably offended someone's feelings.
Please note, however, that I use neither "you" in my post nor rejected any person, but a certain kind of behavior.

Kirilo81:

Red_Rat_Writer:

Kirilo: I find it utterly narcistic to come up to someone and say "Hi, I'm XY, please use for me the pronoun [insert invented 3rd person pronoun here]". Heck, should I make a list of my LGBT friends who likes which pronoun?

*facepalm*

__________________

I would also like to point out that as a queer, this has really turned me off from the community.

I won't take back my personal opinion, but I'm sorry that the ironic tone has probably offended someone's feelings.
Please note, however, that I use neither "you" in my post nor rejected any person, but a certain kind of behavior.

"I'm sorry you're offended by me belittling who you are as a person, but it's not like I'm saying you personally are narcissistic for wanting your language to accommodate your identity... just people like you."

When I first read about Esperanto, the philosophy behind it, and the community built around it, I didn't expect that the first thread I read on the largest Esperantist forum in the world would be filled to the brim with this kind of toxic ignorance.