What goes on in the discussion pages is not necessarily what goes into the 'lessons' at Duolingo.

Anyway, Esperanto's dusty "curators" need to be aware that adoption of the language on any scale larger than three men and a dog is likely to run into usages that aren't carved in stone in the Holy PMEG scripture.

Widespread languages tend to be funny like that.

Vestitor:What goes on in the discussion pages is not necessarily what goes into the 'lessons' at Duolingo.

No, but what about newbies who don't know any better and start emulating these....people? The reason this is important is that this is a forum for people learning Esperanto. A beginner who is unfamiliar with the language may read these posts and, not knowing any better, assume that what they are discussing *IS* widely accepted as correct Esperanto. This potential to mislead newer Esperanto speakers is the crux of why the posts of the past week or so have gotten such a chilly reception. A beginner, having read these posts, could very well confuse Esperanto and Esperant' and end up speaking an obscure blend of the two. Alternately they might think Esperant' is just another way of writing Esperanto, only to be met with puzzled expressions when they start a conversation with a group of esperantists. This is not fair.

Do you honestly believe that someone could reach a conversational level in Esperant' while maintaining the idea that it's Esperanto?

It's obvious to the poster of Esper'/Esperant' (I'm going to call it Ida now) and the people reading that Ida and Esperanto are separate. The guy goes into great detail showing the differences between the languages' spelling, mentioning Esperanto many times.

No one is going to read that post, learn the entire language fluently, and then realize it's not Esperanto.
If they decide to learn Ida and Esperanto at the same time, then when they're practicing Esperanto they'll be corrected they say/spell anything wrong. In this case, they will have to learn to separate the two (which will be difficult because of their relation).

Also, Orthohawk, since our Facebook discussion got deleted (XP), I'm going to make some points I wanted to say there.

1. Duolingo is not a place for talking about [...] conlangs.

Though, I do agree that Duolingo isn't the most suitable place to talk about creating languages (a conlang forum would be best), it is still a language discussion and is therefore relevant to Duolingo.

2. Beginners will still think the language is under construction.

Anybody who studies the language seriously will eventually read up on the history of Esperanto, and realize that it is out of the hands of a few people and that change will have to happen naturally. Obviously, there will be beginner Esperantists that will believe those things, but either,
a. They will not have a big impact on the community/language because they're beginners
b. They will mature as they learn the language, and realize that forcing change is futile.

In addition to that, the Ida post wouldn't create that mentality. From a beginner's perspective looking at the post, it looks like Esperanto is already a cemented language and ze is adding an alternative to it.

A good example is me. I was for adding 'ri' as a non-binary pronoun and then people like Tempo told me that ĝi was already a suitable alternative. Now not really for adding another pronoun.

3. Ze is attacking the language.

Ze pointed some things that could be possibly improved. That isn't an attack, that's a critique.

Vestitor:Anyway, Esperanto's dusty "curators" need to be aware that adoption of the language on any scale larger than three men and a dog is likely to run into usages that aren't carved in stone in the Holy PMEG scripture.

Widespread languages tend to be funny like that.

It is in the language's best interest to be centralized.

A language is a system. If a system never changes then it becomes irrelevant because life is always changing. If a system changes constantly then it becomes unstable.

There has to be a healthy balance.

orthohawk:

Vestitor:What goes on in the discussion pages is not necessarily what goes into the 'lessons' at Duolingo.

No, but what about newbies who don't know any better and start emulating these....people? The reason this is important is that this is a forum for people learning Esperanto. A beginner who is unfamiliar with the language may read these posts and, not knowing any better, assume that what they are discussing *IS* widely accepted as correct Esperanto. This potential to mislead newer Esperanto speakers is the crux of why the posts of the past week or so have gotten such a chilly reception. A beginner, having read these posts, could very well confuse Esperanto and Esperant' and end up speaking an obscure blend of the two. Alternately they might think Esperant' is just another way of writing Esperanto, only to be met with puzzled expressions when they start a conversation with a group of esperantists. This is not fair.

Orthohawk, as a beginner myself and user of Duolingo, I can happily assure you I am in no danger of confusing Esperanto and Esperant' nor am I going to end up speaking an obscure blend of the two. I very much doubt anyone else working through the Duolingo course would make the same mistake either - there are very clear differences between the two. I am also not going to confuse it with Ido or any of the other 'Esperantidos'.

The Esperant' group have been spamming the Duolingo discussion forums for a little while now but they were largely being ignored by 99% of users - until users like yourself and 'ChrisZamenhof' came on there and effectively started a war. Certainly some of what's been written is, to put it mildly, bullying. While I realise you are very passionate about the language and it's rules, it's not a positive or helpful representation of the Esperanto community. As someone who, according to your profile, purports to being a Christian, perhaps it is time to give a bit of love to your neighbour. Come onto Duolingo, point out that it's not Esperanto, but say good luck to them and leave it!

Be rest assured that the Duolingo lessons are teaching us komencantoj Esperanto according the Fundamento, warts and all.

PS. Just noticed there are now over 78 000 people on Duolingo learning Esperanto. Pretty good going in two months!

Alkanadi:

Vestitor:Anyway, Esperanto's dusty "curators" need to be aware that adoption of the language on any scale larger than three men and a dog is likely to run into usages that aren't carved in stone in the Holy PMEG scripture.

Widespread languages tend to be funny like that.

It is in the language's best interest to be centralized.

A language is a system. If a system never changes then it becomes irrelevant because life is always changing. If a system changes constantly then it becomes unstable.

There has to be a healthy balance.

I agree. Now if people could apply this sound common sense to to the economy...

Vestitor:Anyway, Esperanto's dusty "curators" need to be aware that adoption of the language on any scale larger than three men and a dog is likely to run into usages that aren't carved in stone in the Holy PMEG scripture.

I understand PMEG like trustworthy code of best practice, not more, not less.

PMEG Enkonduko: 'Ĝi estas unuavice praktika lernilo, ne teoria verko por lingvistoj.'

The Esperant' group have been spamming the Duolingo discussion forums for a little while now but they were largely being ignored by 99% of users - until users like yourself and 'ChrisZamenhof' came on there and effectively started a war.

I am not aware what is going on in the Duolingo forums, but I find this amusing. Streisand effect!

Why do we need to be so confrontational, almost angry, at these people? Behind anger there is often fear. Perhaps people who react viscerally to reformers feel threatened? I don't. I don't get angry about Esperanto language reformers because I know the odds of them successfully implementing a reform are nil - same as if I were to single-handedly campaign for a massive orthographical reform in English.

This is the beauty of Raumism - it allows me to get on with my life, and my beloved language, without worrying too much about what other people say or do about EO.

If a komencanto is interested in learning the language, he will readily figure out what is normative Esperanto and what is fake. I'm not aware of any learner mixing up the two.

Tempodivalse:If a komencanto is interested in learning the language, he will readily figure out what is normative Esperanto and what is fake. I'm not aware of any learner mixing up the two.

I don't get angry, but to be honest, sometimes it scares me when people talk about reforms because I don't want to spend years and years of my life learning Esperanto, and then not be able to use it effectively because everyone has a different version.

Then some organizational body will declare a form of Esperanto to be Modern Standard Esperanto.

I am just worried that it will become a mess.

I understand that a certain amount of change is necessary because it must adapt to changes in our world.

Alkanadi:sometimes it scares me when people talk about reforms because I don't want to spend years and years of my life learning Esperanto, and then not be able to use it effectively because everyone has a different version.

Well there's zero chance of that happening in your lifetime, so don't let it worry you. It doesn't really matter what the reformers come up with - their misguided proposals are going nowhere. Just learn Esperanto and be happy, and let the reformers have their fun and games too.

My approach to reformers has always been just to give them the relevant information - that Esperanto isn't open to reforms and thus their efforts are a waste of time - and then bail out and let them make of it what they will. If the response (as sadly it often is) is an indignant "you're wrong!" and "you're close minded!" followed by foot-stamping insistence that their reform is going to work, that it's useful, that anyone who can't see this is intolerant of different viewpoints etc etc, well - so be it. Getting into quarrels about it is just as useless as the reforms themselves, so let them have their pipe dreams. With any luck they'll come round to reality eventually.