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Middle/Medieval Esperanto

de Acobjum, 17 de julho de 2015

Mensagens: 53

Idioma: English

Acobjum (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 06:02:04

I know of Arcaicam Esperantom, but has anyone devised a Middle/Medieval Esperanto to reflect a (fictional) evolution of the language from the Arcaicam to the Modern? I believe this would make excellent fiction for many stories taking place in the Medieval period with an Esperanto in transition to its modern form.

Tangi (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 07:49:49

Sadly the author of Esperanto paid zero attention to morphology, creating it, so it is impossible to reconstruct hypothetical earlier forms without going into conlanging too much.
It is also counterproductive, as Esperanto has to have only one style, and archaisms, dialectisms, or colloquialisms have no place in it.

orthohawk (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 11:23:34

Tangi:Sadly the author of Esperanto paid zero attention to morphology, creating it, so it is impossible to reconstruct hypothetical earlier forms without going into conlanging too much.
It is also counterproductive, as Esperanto has to have only one style, and archaisms, dialectisms, or colloquialisms have no place in it.
I would hardly consider a 18-form participial system "zero attention"....

or the word building system

Tempodivalse (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 12:48:55

It is also counterproductive, as Esperanto has to have only one style, and archaisms, dialectisms, or colloquialisms have no place in it.
Esperanto is not as varied in terms of what the linguists call "register" as other langauges - slang and dialects are difficult to convey - but it seems like a bad oversimplification to say there is only "one style".

Colloquial speech is indeed possible, and quite distinct from more formal or poetic language use. The language used by the Akademio in an official text is not the language used in a casual TEJO meetup or coffee shop setting.

There are also a fair amount of archaisms - just look at the Fundamenta Krestomatio or another very early text - e.g. arhxaja, Hxinujo, pomujo, elrigardi (in the sense of aspekti), etc. This is to be expected after around 125 years.

rikforto (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 13:53:51

Tangi:It is also counterproductive, as Esperanto has to have only one style, and archaisms, dialectisms, or colloquialisms have no place in it.
This is Esperanto's worst feature, I think. Somewhere along the lines "thou shalt not make changes to established Esperanto" became for some "if we squeeze a bit harder, maybe we can get rid of all joy!" I think any reader sufficiently versed in standard Esperanto should be able to understand a work of fiction detailing a fictional history of the language is in fact fiction. Given the disproportionate interest in linguistics among Esperantists, such an innovative use of modern Esperanto would probably get a fair few readers if it was reasonably well done and sewn into a larger work.

robbkvasnak (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 17:12:32

I am working on a fictional story in which one character speaks a countryside dialect. I use Ido for that. It is understandable to most Esperanto speakers but it sounds sort of like a the country-bumpkin version, since it is more rooted in French and contains "naturalisms" which give it sort of a regional character.

Acobjum (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 20:01:49

Tangi:Sadly the author of Esperanto paid zero attention to morphology, creating it, so it is impossible to reconstruct hypothetical earlier forms without going into conlanging too much.
It is also counterproductive, as Esperanto has to have only one style, and archaisms, dialectisms, or colloquialisms have no place in it.
This contributes nothing to what I asked. I simply asked if anyone has developed a Medieval form of Esperanto for the purpose of storywriting in a Medieval setting. Arcaicam Esperantom was developed as the Old/Ancient Esperanto and thus a beginning point to which a Medieval form would develop in a fictional setting.

Tempodivalse (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 20:21:42

This contributes nothing to what I asked. I simply asked if anyone has developed a Medieval form of Esperanto for the purpose of storywriting in a Medieval setting. Arcaicam Esperantom was developed as the Old/Ancient Esperanto and thus a beginning point to which a Medieval form would develop in a fictional setting.
I apologise for helping take the conversation off-topic. I just couldn't refrain from calling out a bad factual error from another user.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing besides Arcaicam Esperantom. The closest you can come is write in an archaically poetic Esperanto style (use of obsolete lexicon and spellings, somewhat cumbersome language, kind of like what you might see in the first Esperanto translation of the Iliad).

Sample:

Kantu, diino, koleron de la Peleido Aĥilo,
Ĝin, kiu al la Aĥajoj kaŭzis mizerojn sennombrajn
Kaj en Aidon deĵetis multegajn animojn kuraĝajn
De herouloj kaj faris korpojn iliajn akiro
...
Zeŭso eniris palacon sian, kaj ekleviĝinte
Iris la dioj renkonte al patro ilia, neniu
Kuraĝiĝis atendi lin: ĉiuj renkonte aliris.


The distinct "flavour" of this language, as compared to modern Esperanto, is immediately apparent.

(The Krestomatio has a lot of bad poetry, but this translation of the Iliad is brilliant.)

orthohawk (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 20:49:21

Acobjum:
Tangi:Sadly the author of Esperanto paid zero attention to morphology, creating it, so it is impossible to reconstruct hypothetical earlier forms without going into conlanging too much.
It is also counterproductive, as Esperanto has to have only one style, and archaisms, dialectisms, or colloquialisms have no place in it.
This contributes nothing to what I asked. I simply asked if anyone has developed a Medieval form of Esperanto for the purpose of storywriting in a Medieval setting. Arcaicam Esperantom was developed as the Old/Ancient Esperanto and thus a beginning point to which a Medieval form would develop in a fictional setting.
on the other hand, what we term "old english" was spoken exactly in the Middle Ages (granted, the early erpoch thereof), so why not just use Araicam?

Acobjum (Mostrar o perfil) 17 de julho de 2015 20:50:58

Tempodivalse:
This contributes nothing to what I asked. I simply asked if anyone has developed a Medieval form of Esperanto for the purpose of storywriting in a Medieval setting. Arcaicam Esperantom was developed as the Old/Ancient Esperanto and thus a beginning point to which a Medieval form would develop in a fictional setting.
I apologise for helping take the conversation off-topic. I just couldn't refrain from calling out a bad factual error from another user.

As far as I am aware, there is nothing besides Arcaicam Esperantom. The closest you can come is write in an archaically poetic Esperanto style (use of obsolete lexicon and spellings, somewhat cumbersome language, kind of like what you might see in the first Esperanto translation of the Iliad).

Sample:

Kantu, diino, koleron de la Peleido Aĥilo,
Ĝin, kiu al la Aĥajoj kaŭzis mizerojn sennombrajn
Kaj en Aidon deĵetis multegajn animojn kuraĝajn
De herouloj kaj faris korpojn iliajn akiro
...
Zeŭso eniris palacon sian, kaj ekleviĝinte
Iris la dioj renkonte al patro ilia, neniu
Kuraĝiĝis atendi lin: ĉiuj renkonte aliris.


The distinct "flavour" of this language, as compared to modern Esperanto, is immediately apparent.

(The Krestomatio has a lot of bad poetry, but this translation of the Iliad is brilliant.)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Esperanto Could this count as a Medieval form?

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