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Minor translation question

di Tempodivalse, 21 luglio 2015

Messaggi: 19

Lingua: English

jefusan (Mostra il profilo) 22 luglio 2015 20:19:07

sudanglo:
Nornen:never in accusative
Sometimes trovi is used in a estimating sense (taksado), and sometimes trovi is used in a locating sense.

Mi trovis la libron interesa
Ĉiu trovos ion interesan en ĉi tiu libro.

In Temp's sentence we are clearly talking about as it was when he found it (malkovri).

So why not gardi ĝin, kian mi trovis ĝin?

From la Tekstaro:

Post mallonga tempo alvenas du havenaj soldatoj, tiregantaj individuon, kiun ili trovis duonvivan pro malsobraĵo en ia drinkejo

Now it wasn't the soldiers opinion. They just found him in a half-dead state.
Dankon. I assumed we were talking about "trovi" in the (as you put it) "stata trovo" sense.

jefusan (Mostra il profilo) 22 luglio 2015 20:34:47

The more I look it, the more I realize that it has to be the accusative, if we're talking about physically finding something.

Mi trovis oran tason.

Kian tason vi trovis?

Mi trovis ĝin.

Kian vi trovis ĝin?

jefusan (Mostra il profilo) 22 luglio 2015 20:57:53

Here's a relevant example from PMEG, written by the 'Hof himself in his translation of a Sholem Aleichem story:
Li havas [tian] kapon, kian vi ne trovos en la tuta mondo.
*drops mic*

nornen (Mostra il profilo) 23 luglio 2015 03:28:21

sudanglo:
Nornen:never in accusative
Sometimes trovi is used in a estimating sense (taksado), and sometimes trovi is used in a locating sense.

Mi trovis la libron interesa
Ĉiu trovos ion interesan en ĉi tiu libro.
Maybe you should not have quoted me out of context. I said that "Predicatives (predicate nouns) are never in accusative.".

In your first example we have a predicative adjective and behold: no accusative. In your second example we have an attributive adjective and behold: it agrees in case.

Mi trovis la unuan (attr) libron interesa (pred).

This has nothing to do with "estimating" or "locating" sense.

tommjames (Mostra il profilo) 23 luglio 2015 08:34:33

nornen:I said that "Predicatives (predicate nouns) are never in accusative.
Note however, that in fact they sometimes are.

orthohawk (Mostra il profilo) 23 luglio 2015 11:08:20

tommjames:
nornen:I said that "Predicatives (predicate nouns) are never in accusative.
Note however, that in fact they sometimes are.
But they are. "Predicate adjective" by definition refers to the subject of the sentence. All of those examples in the "Eble tamen n-finajxo" section of Bertilo's work are adjectives referring to an object pronoun, thus are not predicate adjectives. They do become predicates in the second sentence, the ones with the clauses.

nornen (Mostra il profilo) 23 luglio 2015 19:11:11

tommjames:
nornen:I said that "Predicatives (predicate nouns) are never in accusative.
Note however, that in fact they sometimes are.
Even the author of the grammar book doubts that those adjuncts are predicative:
Iafoje ĉi tia A-finaĵa priskribo de objekto sence respondas al kiam-frazo, kaj montras staton, kiu ne dependas de la ĉefverba ago. En tiaj okazoj oni povas opinii, ke temas ne pri vera perverba priskribo, sed pri iaspeca komplemento. Tiam oni povas ja uzi N-finaĵon. Tia aldono de N povas iafoje doni nuancan diferencon:
Back to the verb trovi: "Mi trovis la hundon mortintan." and "Mi trovis la hundon mortinta." are apples and oranges.

Tempodivalse (Mostra il profilo) 23 luglio 2015 19:37:35

There are some cases where it makes little or no difference whether you use the accusative or predicative nominative (I think PMEG offers a similar example to this):

Mi preferas kukojn dolchaj - I like cakes sweet
Mi preferas kukojn dolchajn - I like sweet cakes

Not really a difference as far as output meaning is concerned.

But again, this doesn't appear to apply to my initial example sentence.

jefusan (Mostra il profilo) 27 luglio 2015 15:49:00

Tempodivalse:
But again, this doesn't appear to apply to my initial example sentence.
I think my example from PMEG above does, though.

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