הודעות: 137
שפה: English
Tempodivalse (הצגת פרופיל) 25 בספטמבר 2015, 19:20:11
If syntactic constructions as "instalado Linukson" were allowed, infinitive mode would become redundant. Btw. "savi homaron" and "instali Linukson" are simpler than nominalized forms.Constructions like "instalado Linukson" are actually allowed - although they are strongly dated by this point. I still use them occasionally when de could be ambiguous. Proficient Esperantists should be able to understand them readily.
It seems your comment is more directed at use of -ad- versus -i in general. I'd say those two are definitely not redundant. In some situations, the nominalisation may be more effective or more direct - for example if you want to use it with a preposition, or want to modify it (la malfacila instalado Linukson/de Linukso).
Clarence666 (הצגת פרופיל) 26 בספטמבר 2015, 03:03:51
Roch:tiu instalado na* Linukso daŭros ankoraŭ na* * iom da tempo?[ * ] rekte erare / definitely faulty -> Instalado de Linukso
[ * * ] cxi tie "na" utilas / here "na" is useful
> Instalado far Linukso
signifus ke "Linukso installas ion alian" ... ne gxustas en la kunteksto!
> "Time flies like an arrow -- but fruit flies like a banana"
> They told me at school that it was a third meaning:
> "kronometru muŝojn kiel iu sago". Can you confirm?
YES
PMEG:N-finaĵa objekto ankaŭ povas esti priskribo de aga O-vorto, kvankam tia uzo estas ekstreme malofta: La tirado la ĉaron estis malfacila por la bovo. La ĉaro estas objekto de la tirado. Dankon pro la elekto min. Normale oni tamen uzas de por montri la objekton de aga O-vorto: La tirado de la ĉaro estis malfacila por la bovo. Dankon pro la elekto de mi.Ho mojose. Jen alia fusxo en la tradicia lingvouzo kaj alia ideo por reformo: diru cxiam "La tirado la ĉaron" kaj neniam "La tirado de la ĉaro". Tiam "installado Linukson" farigxos gxusta, kaj "installado na Linux" ankaux.
Tempodivalse (הצגת פרופיל) 26 בספטמבר 2015, 16:51:36
Clarence666:...
Roch:...To clarify once again, na is not standard or accepted Esperanto. Please don't mislead readers, especially those who are not yet proficient, into thinking that this is normal or desirable usage.
I still don't understand what exactly is the problem. Why do you have an aversion to sentences like Mi uzas Linux, that you feel compelled to overtly indicate accusativity? This was a non-issue for over a century of Esperanto. Has something changed in the past 20 years to make it necessary? I can't imagine what: EO has dealt with non-Esperanticised names since its conception.
There are many situations where accusativity simply can't be made explicit - such as with corelatives and adverbials. In fact, if you try to use na in those contexts, as someone here tried to do, it looks rather silly.
I know I'm repeating myself now, and I would stop commenting on reform threads altogether, except I'm worried that learners who read these kinds of threads will get the idea that the reforms are legitimate.
dbob (הצגת פרופיל) 2 באוקטובר 2015, 08:59:57
Urho (הצגת פרופיל) 2 באוקטובר 2015, 11:05:33
Roch:A newby may well read Mi uzas LinŭMi uzas Linukson (Linux). or
- Mi uzas operaciumon Linux.
- Mi uzas Linux-operaciumon.
- Mi uzas na Linux.
Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 2 באוקטובר 2015, 15:56:21
Mi: Jes, mia tekkomputilo estas sur la tablo...
Amiko: Mi ne povas trovi la interreto retumilo! Mi ne komprenas...
Mi: haha, mi uzas Linux...
Amiko: Kio? Kio estas 'Linux'?
Mi: Ĝi estas libera operaciumon. La retumilo estas ĉi tie.
Amiko: Bonega! Ĉi tiu estas tre rapida...Ĉu mi povas akiri ĉi tiun por Windows?
Mi: Kio estas 'Windows'?
In all languages context and normal conversational explanations help. My guess is if the person doesn't have a contextual idea of Linux in some sense even adding 'na' or some other affix will not be of much help anyway.
gfried (הצגת פרופיל) 2 באוקטובר 2015, 16:03:06
Roch:Personally I would tend to pronounce it "lainex." Can linuks and lainex happily coexist? It is to say, if we do that with all those non-esperantized proper-nouns...God has spoken.
Tempodivalse (הצגת פרופיל) 2 באוקטובר 2015, 16:24:57
In all languages context and normal conversational explanations help. My guess is if the person doesn't have a contextual idea of Linux in some sense even adding 'na' or some other affix will not be of much help anyway.Agreed. I have the impression that people are trying to create artificially problematic examples to justify the use of na, but if you just look at normal speech, there is no difficulty.
Many languages with flexible word order do not always allow explicit demarcation of nominative and accusative. For example, in Greek and Russian, the accusative and nominative forms of the neuter gender are identical. You have to use either word order or context to figure out which is the subject and which is the object. Practically speaking, it's impossible to get confused.
In Esperanto we have the exact same thing in the form of multe/iom da constructions and un-Esperantised names. Neither Russian, nor Greek, nor Esperanto has problems as a result of this technical ambiguity.
(P.S. Vestitor: You might want to double-check your use of accusatives, endings and correlatives - something doesn't look right in more than a few places.)
Vestitor (הצגת פרופיל) 2 באוקטובר 2015, 17:03:03
Tempodivalse:I believe it. I write Esperanto like Les Dawson plays the piano...
(P.S. Vestitor: You might want to double-check your use of accusatives, endings and correlatives - something doesn't look right in more than a few places.)
mkj1887 (הצגת פרופיל) 2 באוקטובר 2015, 21:53:27