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Bleach?

de bonobobabe, 2008-februaro-21

Mesaĝoj: 22

Lingvo: English

eb.eric (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-21 22:26:13

The PMEG says that it can go either way (the aĵo is on the receiving end or on the "doing" end with action verbs):
Oni ankaŭ povas uzi AĴ ĉe aga radiko (kiu normale estas verbo). Tia AĴ-vorto montras (konkretan) aferon, kiu rilatas al la ago. La preciza signifo dependas de la speco de ago. Povas esti rezulto de la ago, konkretaĵo kiu faras la agon, konkretaĵo uzata por la ago, objekto de la ago k.t.p.
I am still inclined to intrepret blankigaĵo as a thing that makes white, like how kovraĵo is something that covers, not something that is covered, and unlike trinkaĵo, which is something that gets drunk and not something that drinks.

stefanspaul (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-21 23:32:18

My electronic dictionary "Vortaro V2.4" (Eo-German-Eo) returns the following for the word "Bleiche" (= bleach):

blankigejo, paleco

Would any of these be satisfactory?

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-21 23:46:51

PMEG's examples indicates that a verb with aĵo could either be a subject or object of the verb. However Butler's Step by Step, section 922, indicates that with a verb, aĵo is more commonly used for something suffering the action of a verb, and only rarely being the instrument. Jen Nia Mondo 2, section 22.4 indicates that it means the external manifestation of some verb, here implying the result of blankigi rather than an instrument of it. Kalocsay and Waringhien's grammar, section 328, indicates that where aĵo is used with a verb, and the verb is transitive (as is the case with -igi verbs), the manifestation is an object rather than a subject.
So it's not an easy question, but on balance I would go for blankigaĵo being clothes (etc) being whitened, rather than the bleach.

richardhall (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-22 01:13:44

Wouldn't it be easier to use whatever is Esperanto for sodium hypochlorite? okulumo.gif

sergejm (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-22 06:09:28

Let's look at an other verb!
You can write (skribi) a writing/letter (skribaĵon) by a pen(per skribilo) or by a typewriter (per skribmaŝino).

Kovraĵo is also the thing you get after you cover (but this one is on the other thing which you have covered (kovritaĵo)).

The suffixes have the same meaning with the verrb blankigi.
Blankigilo can be blankigkemiaĵo or blankigmaŝino. If you need to distinguish the meanings, you need to use the longer words.
I suppose what sodium hypochlorite is natria hipoklorito.

eb.eric (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-22 06:16:51

Miland:Butler's Step by Step, section 922, indicates that with a verb, aĵo is more commonly used for something suffering the action of a verb, and only rarely being the instrument. Jen Nia Mondo 2, section 22.4 indicates that it means the external manifestation of some verb, here implying the result of blankigi rather than an instrument of it. Kalocsay and Waringhien's grammar, section 328, indicates that where aĵo is used with a verb, and the verb is transitive (as is the case with -igi verbs), the manifestation is an object rather than a subject.
So it's not an easy question, but on balance I would go for blankigaĵo being clothes (etc) being whitened, rather than the bleach.
Very interesting, thank you for your research. But doesn't the meaning of these words seem to indicate otherwise? (all in the reta vortaro)

[LISTO]
ebriigaĵo (an alcoholic drink)
refreŝigaĵo (a refreshing drink)
beligajxo (ornaments, decorations)[/list]If the -ajxo in these words were referring to the object of the verbs they're made of, they would have completely different meanings:

[LISTO]
ebriigaĵo (something/someone that is made drunk)
refreŝigaĵo (something/someone that is refreshed)
beligajxo (something being beautified)[/list]

edmoreira (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-22 06:22:44

sergejm:I suppose what sodium hypochlorite is natria hipoklorito.
I have a doubt regarding your translation. Why did you chose to use sodium as an adjective? The compound has "two parts" hypochlorite and sodium but how do you identify one as and adjective and the other as a noun? This is just for the sake of argument since I don't know if they have come up with rules for chemical nomenclature in E-o. However another posibility could be hipoklorito de natrio or simply natrio hipoklorito.
What do you think?

sergejm (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-22 06:42:19

Table tennis = (sur)tabla teniso, teniso sur tablo
Tennis table = tenisa tablo or tablo por teniso
sodium hypochlorite = natria hipoklorito or hipoklorito de natrio but not natrio hipoklorito
In English the same word can be a noun, an adjective, a verb and an adverb without changing endings.

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-22 10:31:12

eb.eric:
(all in the reta vortaro)
[LISTO]
ebriigaĵo (an alcoholic drink)
refreŝigaĵo (a refreshing drink)
beligajxo (ornaments, decorations)[/list]
None of these words appears in the lernu! vortaro in this form and with such a meaning. The reta vortaro appears to be like the Wikipedia, so that it is not authoritative. But it may indicate usage in some quarters. However the suffix ilo would also serve the purpose.

eb.eric (Montri la profilon) 2008-februaro-22 18:32:16

Beligaĵo is in the Fundamenta Krestomatio, but I can't find any reliable sources of the others online.
Tio ĉi estas belega vido, ĉar en ĉiu konko kuŝas brilantaj perloj, el kiuj ĉiu sola jam estus efektiva beligaĵo en la krono de reĝino.

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