본문으로
댓글 쓰기

Bleach?

글쓴이: bonobobabe, 2008년 2월 21일

글: 22

언어: English

eb.eric (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 21일 오후 10:26:13

The PMEG says that it can go either way (the aĵo is on the receiving end or on the "doing" end with action verbs):
Oni ankaŭ povas uzi AĴ ĉe aga radiko (kiu normale estas verbo). Tia AĴ-vorto montras (konkretan) aferon, kiu rilatas al la ago. La preciza signifo dependas de la speco de ago. Povas esti rezulto de la ago, konkretaĵo kiu faras la agon, konkretaĵo uzata por la ago, objekto de la ago k.t.p.
I am still inclined to intrepret blankigaĵo as a thing that makes white, like how kovraĵo is something that covers, not something that is covered, and unlike trinkaĵo, which is something that gets drunk and not something that drinks.

stefanspaul (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 21일 오후 11:32:18

My electronic dictionary "Vortaro V2.4" (Eo-German-Eo) returns the following for the word "Bleiche" (= bleach):

blankigejo, paleco

Would any of these be satisfactory?

Miland (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 21일 오후 11:46:51

PMEG's examples indicates that a verb with aĵo could either be a subject or object of the verb. However Butler's Step by Step, section 922, indicates that with a verb, aĵo is more commonly used for something suffering the action of a verb, and only rarely being the instrument. Jen Nia Mondo 2, section 22.4 indicates that it means the external manifestation of some verb, here implying the result of blankigi rather than an instrument of it. Kalocsay and Waringhien's grammar, section 328, indicates that where aĵo is used with a verb, and the verb is transitive (as is the case with -igi verbs), the manifestation is an object rather than a subject.
So it's not an easy question, but on balance I would go for blankigaĵo being clothes (etc) being whitened, rather than the bleach.

richardhall (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 22일 오전 1:13:44

Wouldn't it be easier to use whatever is Esperanto for sodium hypochlorite? okulumo.gif

sergejm (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 22일 오전 6:09:28

Let's look at an other verb!
You can write (skribi) a writing/letter (skribaĵon) by a pen(per skribilo) or by a typewriter (per skribmaŝino).

Kovraĵo is also the thing you get after you cover (but this one is on the other thing which you have covered (kovritaĵo)).

The suffixes have the same meaning with the verrb blankigi.
Blankigilo can be blankigkemiaĵo or blankigmaŝino. If you need to distinguish the meanings, you need to use the longer words.
I suppose what sodium hypochlorite is natria hipoklorito.

eb.eric (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 22일 오전 6:16:51

Miland:Butler's Step by Step, section 922, indicates that with a verb, aĵo is more commonly used for something suffering the action of a verb, and only rarely being the instrument. Jen Nia Mondo 2, section 22.4 indicates that it means the external manifestation of some verb, here implying the result of blankigi rather than an instrument of it. Kalocsay and Waringhien's grammar, section 328, indicates that where aĵo is used with a verb, and the verb is transitive (as is the case with -igi verbs), the manifestation is an object rather than a subject.
So it's not an easy question, but on balance I would go for blankigaĵo being clothes (etc) being whitened, rather than the bleach.
Very interesting, thank you for your research. But doesn't the meaning of these words seem to indicate otherwise? (all in the reta vortaro)

[LISTO]
ebriigaĵo (an alcoholic drink)
refreŝigaĵo (a refreshing drink)
beligajxo (ornaments, decorations)[/list]If the -ajxo in these words were referring to the object of the verbs they're made of, they would have completely different meanings:

[LISTO]
ebriigaĵo (something/someone that is made drunk)
refreŝigaĵo (something/someone that is refreshed)
beligajxo (something being beautified)[/list]

edmoreira (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 22일 오전 6:22:44

sergejm:I suppose what sodium hypochlorite is natria hipoklorito.
I have a doubt regarding your translation. Why did you chose to use sodium as an adjective? The compound has "two parts" hypochlorite and sodium but how do you identify one as and adjective and the other as a noun? This is just for the sake of argument since I don't know if they have come up with rules for chemical nomenclature in E-o. However another posibility could be hipoklorito de natrio or simply natrio hipoklorito.
What do you think?

sergejm (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 22일 오전 6:42:19

Table tennis = (sur)tabla teniso, teniso sur tablo
Tennis table = tenisa tablo or tablo por teniso
sodium hypochlorite = natria hipoklorito or hipoklorito de natrio but not natrio hipoklorito
In English the same word can be a noun, an adjective, a verb and an adverb without changing endings.

Miland (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 22일 오전 10:31:12

eb.eric:
(all in the reta vortaro)
[LISTO]
ebriigaĵo (an alcoholic drink)
refreŝigaĵo (a refreshing drink)
beligajxo (ornaments, decorations)[/list]
None of these words appears in the lernu! vortaro in this form and with such a meaning. The reta vortaro appears to be like the Wikipedia, so that it is not authoritative. But it may indicate usage in some quarters. However the suffix ilo would also serve the purpose.

eb.eric (프로필 보기) 2008년 2월 22일 오후 6:32:16

Beligaĵo is in the Fundamenta Krestomatio, but I can't find any reliable sources of the others online.
Tio ĉi estas belega vido, ĉar en ĉiu konko kuŝas brilantaj perloj, el kiuj ĉiu sola jam estus efektiva beligaĵo en la krono de reĝino.

다시 위로