Сообщений: 16
Язык: English
Alkanadi (Показать профиль) 10 февраля 2016 г., 6:49:06
Li skuas la kapon, he shakes his head.
La patro estas alta, Father is tall.
Mi donis ĝin al la patro, I gave it to Father.
Tsahraf (Показать профиль) 10 февраля 2016 г., 8:06:25
More precisely it would be:
"I wash the face."
"He shakes the head."
"The father is tall."
"I gave it to the father."
"I wash my face." would be: "Mi lavas mian vizagxon."
"he shakes his head." = "Li lavas lian kapon."
"Father is tall." = "Patro estas alta."
"I gave it to Father." = "Mi donis gxin al Patro."
Miland (Показать профиль) 10 февраля 2016 г., 8:46:33
Tsahraf:More precisely it would be..Patro with a capital P is nowadays more often used for divinity, and la is commonly used before vizaĝon and kapon in such contexts, though the possessives wouldn't be wrong.
Kirilo81 (Показать профиль) 10 февраля 2016 г., 9:08:22
E.g. for the first example Polish says "Myję twarz" (lavas-mi vizaĝon), German has "Ich wasche mir das Gesicht" (mi lavas al-mi la vizaĝon), English has "I wash my face" (mi lavas mian vizaĝon), so there are plenty of models Esperanto can follow.
For me "mi lavas la/mian vizaĝon" sounds most natural and simple.
opalo (Показать профиль) 10 февраля 2016 г., 9:08:51
The idea, I think, is that pronouns are fussy and unnecessary for body parts; on the other hand, you will sometimes see Li lavis al si la manojn.
"Li lavas lian kapon."Should be sian.
Abeneezer (Показать профиль) 10 февраля 2016 г., 16:21:56
Probably you are right, but people reading this should keep in mind that they are both syntactically correct and semantically different."Li lavas lian kapon."Should be sian.
nornen (Показать профиль) 10 февраля 2016 г., 16:31:51
Tsahraf:It is quite good!Actually not.
More precisely it would be:
"I wash the face."
"He shakes the head."
"The father is tall."
"I gave it to the father."
"I wash my face." would be: "Mi lavas mian vizagxon."
"he shakes his head." = "Li lavas lian kapon."
"Father is tall." = "Patro estas alta."
"I gave it to Father." = "Mi donis gxin al Patro."
While in English it is pragmatic to use body parts of the subject with a possessive pronoun (I wash my face), it is pragmatic in Esperanto to use the definite article in these cases (Mi lavas la vizaĝon), like several other languages do. Hence "Li skuas la kapon" is a perfectly fine translation of "He is shaking his head" and vice versa.
Alkanadi (Показать профиль) 14 февраля 2016 г., 6:07:43
I think that sia or sian is more popular in modern usage, which indicates that Esperanto usage may have been influenced by English speakers.
sergejm (Показать профиль) 16 февраля 2016 г., 9:49:22
Alkanadi:Li skuas la kapon, he shakes his head.Li skuas la kapon = Li kapneas - He shakes his head to say "no".
Li balancas la kapon = Li kapjesas - He shakes his head to say "yes".
(If you believe to ReVo).
What such difficulties are needed for?
erinja (Показать профиль) 16 февраля 2016 г., 16:44:17
Alkanadi:I copied and pasted these right out of a grammar book from the early days of Esperanto. I posted this thread to see how much Esperanto has changed over the years.I think Esperanto has had little influence from English speakers. Native English speakers are not a large contingent in the world of Esperanto speakers who are skilled enough to influence general use.
I think that sia or sian is more popular in modern usage, which indicates that Esperanto usage may have been influenced by English speakers.
A ton of languages use a reflexive like si or sia in cases like the ones you cite. English actually makes a lot less use of the reflexive than many Romance languages do, partially because of its flexibility with using the same verb transitively and intransitively.