Mesaĝoj: 24
Lingvo: English
Frakseno (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-22 18:06:05
From what I understand, some verbs in English are transitive, some are intransitive, and some can be either/both. But in Esperanto, the verb must be one or the other, though it can be converted from its "natural" category to the other by use of -ig- or -igx-.
Correct so far?
Is there a way of knowing which verbs in Esperanto are transitive and which are intransitive?
For example, I wish to use the verb fermi (to close).
So would it be:
Mi fermis la pordon.
or
Mi fermigis la pordon.
or
La pordo fermigxis.
?
Please help me to understand the difference in usage and effect. Dankon!
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-22 18:58:14
Frakseno:Is there a way of knowing which verbs in Esperanto are transitive and which are intransitive?No. You have to learn them by heart.
Then again, the same is valid for English.
Actually in esperanto you can guess; take for instance paco. This means peace. Therefore paci means "to be at peace"; if paci meant "to pacify", then paco would mean "pacifization". Therefore "to pacify" is pacigi.
What you really have to learn is the distinct quality of the word root (the word without the final ending). If it is an adjectival word root, by applying a verb you turn it into a predicative (ruĝa, red; ruĝi, to be red).
Miland (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-22 19:21:16
Frakseno:I am now learning about transitive and intransitive verbs...You are correct in your understanding of what transitivity is and how it can be changed by using ig or iĝ .
But alas, there is no way in E-o of telling for sure whether a verb is transitive or intransitive other than learning it as a hard fact. However, on page 179 of Teach yourself Esperanto there are two very useful lists of common verbs which in English (but not in E-o) can be either transitive or intransitive. For reference, here they are, classified by their status in E-o:
(a) Transitive, requiring iĝ to make them intransitive:
etendi, fendi, fermi, fini, kolekti, komenci, movi, renkonti, rompi, ŝanĝi, turni, veki, vendi.
(b) Intransitive, requiring ig to make them transitive (por transitivigi ilin!):
boli, bruli, ĉesi, daŭri, droni, halti, kreski, krevi, pasi, pendi, sidi, soni, sonori, stari.
I suggest learning them off by heart. I just did, before sending this message, so I know that it's possible with a few minutes of effort!
Frakseno (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-22 20:17:57
So, if I shut the door, Mi fermis la pordon, but if the door closes seemingly of its own accord, La pordo fermigxis?
And afterwards, La pordo estas fermita?
Would we say La pordo estas ferma if it's been shut for as long as we've known about it? For example, if the door was open when I woke up this morning, but my wife got a shirt out of it and closed it while I was drinking coffee, it's fermita (having transitioned to a new state); but if the door has been closed and locked ever since we moved into this house, the door is ferma (as a continuous state)?
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-22 20:54:53
Frakseno:So, if I shut the door, Mi fermis la pordon, but if the door closes seemingly of its own accord, La pordo fermigxis?That's right.
And afterwards, La pordo estas fermita?Yes.
Would we say La pordo estas ferma if it's been shut for as long as we've known about it?No; "ferma" is used to describe something that actively closes. "ferma ceremonio", for instance.
awake (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-23 23:25:10
mnlg: La pordo estas ferma if it's been shut for as long as we've known about it?Your use of the word "actively" is possibly misleading here. But i think your choice ferma ceremonio is legitimate. Just to add a bit of clarification to your point, when you are referring to something that is actively going on, you should use the active participle.
No; "ferma" is used to describe something that actively closes. "ferma ceremonio", for instance.
Think of it like this. We would say fluganta birdo for a bird which is actively flying. But we might say fluga birdo in order to describe a member of the class of birds which can fly (not a penguin or an ostrich, for example).
One could refer to a fermanta ceremonio which would be a ceremony that is winding down. But a ferma ceremonio would be, at least as I understand it, a ceremony designed to end something (the last ceremony of a weeklong conference which brings that conference to a close, for example).
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-24 10:40:47
awake:Your use of the word "actively" is possibly misleading here.Thank you for your correction. I believe the confusion could be due to the fact that I forgot to add an object.
awake:One could refer to a fermanta ceremonio which would be a ceremony that is winding down.No, that would be fermiĝanta ( =~ that is going to become closed).
A fermanta ceremonio is a ceremony whose action of closing (something) is in progress.
A ferma ceremonio is a ceremony designed to close something, not necessarily happening right now.
Other possible uses of "ferma": ferma kunsido, ferma parolado. My dictionary also mentions fermohoro (closing time).
But a ferma ceremonio would be, at least as I understand it, a ceremony designed to end something (the last ceremony of a weeklong conference which brings that conference to a close, for example).Yes. Or at the end of the Olympic games.
awake (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-24 16:51:04
mnlg:[Yes, I agree that's correct. Thanks for the correction.
A i]fermanta ceremonio[/i] is a ceremony whose action of closing (something) is in progress.
Perfection is an asymptotic process *grin*
mnlg (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-24 18:12:25
awake:Perfection is an asymptotic process *grin*As a friend of mine used to say, nobody's perfect, and I am a perfect example
Rohan (Montri la profilon) 2008-majo-26 15:11:50
E.g.: 'Li mortis hieraux. Do, nun, li estas mortinta'.
Here, 'morti' is an intransitive verb. When, if at all, can we say 'mortita'? It seems incorrect because 'mortita' would refer to one who's being affected by the verb, i.e., the object, while 'morti' doesn't take an object at all.