Ku rupapuro rw'ibirimwo
Kwishura

Is Esperanto eurocentric and sexist?

ca, kivuye

Ubutumwa 82

ururimi: English

Serveto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 22 Ntwarante 2019 04:37:05

AndreoAILJ:Hello, I'm a Student in an American School in Johannesburg and have to do an interview for an assignment. I've been reading about Esperanto and it sounds like an interesting language, so I was wondering if anyone would be willing to be interviewed about why they learned Esperanto, where they learned it from, and how they use it in everyday life. Thanks!
I'd be happy to talk to you Andreo. My email address is troylfullerton@gmail.com. Contact me, and we can set something up over Skype or whatever would work for you.

Troy

Serveto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 22 Ntwarante 2019 06:27:18

I have a problem with changing the structure of a language simply to comply with current social trends or fads in political correctness. That is opening a Pandora's box that is awfully hard to close once it gets started, as there will always be crazes that are in vogue at the time surrounding what people think others should be all touchy about.

Yes, there are male-oriented base forms whose female counterpart is formed by adding -ino...so what? It's a very effective vocabulary mechanism that GREATLY decreases the need for learning dozens of new words. People have truly had a charmed life if they can actually read some form of second-hand treatment for females into a word building device---and that's all it takes to offend them. They could just as easily read something positive into the situation--that a special suffix was reserved just to indicate female noun forms.

As for being Euro-centric--yes, as a matter of fact, the vocabulary, at least, IS Euro-centric. It gives people who speak non-Western languages the opportunity to acquire a Western language experience. That way, if they go on to attempt to acquire another Western language, they'll have that experience as well as cognates to give them a head start.

amigueo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 30 Ntwarante 2019 20:17:45

For me the week point of esperanto is the passive voice. That assymmetry is more annoying that -in and i suppose it a kind of sexism, more subtile.

Serveto (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 31 Ntwarante 2019 01:57:27

I'm intensely curious, Amigueo---what do you find annoying about the passive voice? Also, I'm particularly mystified about what you find to be "sexist" with the passive voice---the passive voice seems totally unrelated to gender. What am I missing?

Metsis (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 1 Ndamukiza 2019 07:03:02

Serveto:
Yes, there are male-oriented base forms whose female counterpart is formed by adding -ino...so what? It's a very effective vocabulary mechanism that GREATLY decreases the need for learning dozens of new words.
Actually the alleged need for learning dozens of new words isn't there. There are very few uses of -in at least, when it comes to humans and everyday modern life. Mostly just a couple of family members,

amigueo (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Nyakanga 2020 11:44:36

Serveto:I'm intensely curious, Amigueo---what do you find annoying about the passive voice? Also, I'm particularly mystified about what you find to be "sexist" with the passive voice---the passive voice seems totally unrelated to gender. What am I missing?
Subtile link between gender and active/passive voice? Traditionally, there is a link, perhaps imaginary. active/masculine = passive/femenine.

novatago (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Nyakanga 2020 14:43:22

Serveto:I'm intensely curious, Amigueo
As you can see, it's much better not to say his name.

Ĝis. Novatago (blogo / 7 + 1)

Altebrilas (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 3 Nyakanga 2020 17:06:09

Alvenante sur la fadenon, mi legis malnovan mesaĝon, kies parton mi citas:

morico: I read English, sed, kiel minimume 80% de la ne naskiĝ'parolantoj de la angla en la mondo, mi parolas "Glob'bad'english", do mi preferas skribi en Esperanto.
...

Por la "sufikso" -in, oni povas rimarki ke tio estas la finaĵo por reĝ'ino en multe tre parolataj lingvoj: queen (kŭ'in) en la angla, reĝ'ina (latina kaj itala), ra'inha (portugala), re'ina (hispana), re'ine (fr), könig'in (germana), tsar'in (rusa). La ina principo en la olda ĉina filosofio de Konfuceo estas yin. La plimulto de la homaro konas jam la "subfikson" in', kiu estas reale memstara vorto kiel ĉiuj "afiksoj".
(legi la 11-an regulon de la Fundamenta gramatiko, la 16 reguloj).

Kelkaj ŝanĝoj povas havi avantaĝojn, sed ili povas ankaŭ havi mal'avantaĝojn. Ĉiu lingvo havas sian koher'econ
Mi ekhavis inspiron: Kial ne uzi la sufikson "ang" por la viroj? Oni solvus samtempe la du problemojn. Killing two birds with one stone. okulumo.gif

Frano (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Nyakanga 2020 16:38:26

Altebrilas:Mi ekhavis inspiron: Kial ne uzi la sufikson "ang" por la viroj? Oni solvus samtempe la du problemojn. Killing two birds with one stone. okulumo.gif
Cetere ĝi ankaŭ lumigus la originon de la vorto "angino". okulumo.gif

Edveno (Kwerekana umwidondoro) 4 Gitugutu 2020 08:16:23

Esperanto's handling of gender is, well, a little bit 19th-century. But alas that is what you can expect from, well, a 19th-century creation. Zamenhof almost certainly thought nothing wrong with viro - virino; almost certainly the thought was "I'm cutting the amount of words you have to learn in half!" not "Women are inferior to men". That being said, if I could go back in time and tell LLZ to change an aspect of Esperanto, it would be:

1. All roots are gender neutral, with the exception of viro (man) and vajbo (woman, from German Weib, which note that back then would not have been as derogatory as it is today, German speakers). Homo of course still exists for gender-neutral "person". This would get rid of some roots as well, no need for "knab-" when it is just the masculine version of "infan-"
2. There is no gendered 3sg pronoun; li functions like hän in Finnish (remember that in the universe where I "guided" Zamenhof, an Esperanto where li means "he" only never existed, so don't call me sexist for preferring li, which could stand easily for both Latin ille "he" and illa "she", to ŝi which is a transparent borrowing of English she, as the neutral pronoun in hypothetical Edvenosperanto)
3. The most neutral usage of a word would be the gender neutral form. If it was absolutely imperative that it be known that your driver was a man or woman, vir(o)- or vajb(o)- could be attached (virŝoforo, vajbŝoforo). Similar to -in- and -iĉ- but since we're reinventing the language we don't have to use the ugly suffix -iĉ-!

And presto, Esperanto would be gender neutral. To our actual-Esperanto attuned ears, the idea of saying virinfanoj kaj vajbinfanoj instead of knaboj kaj knabinoj does seem a little strange, but of course we wouldn't question it, if that were the Esperanto we had learned.

Minor edit: apparently he in Latin is "ille" and not "illus" oops

Subira ku ntango