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de IndigoGollum, 2024-januaro-14

Mesaĝoj: 13

Lingvo: English

IndigoGollum (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-14 17:13:35

Besides -ĉjo and -njo, what suffixes are often used for nicknames or pet names in Esperanto? Does a common one for non binary people or people of unknown gender exist? I've heard of -pjo but I don't think it sounds very good and it doesn't seem to be very common.

konesperantidoj (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-14 18:57:20

IndigoGollum:Does a common one for non binary people or people of unknown gender exist?
No, because it is not neccessary for the language.

just combine radicals "vir'" and "in'" , like any esperanto radical, example: "vir'instru'ist'in'o or "vir'nask'int'in'o".

and intersex can be referred to as vir'vir'in'o

Metsis (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-14 21:07:24

First a remark that I find having official suffixes for nicknames quite alien to me. This is probably based on the facts that in my native language you seldomly address anyone by name, be it the official one or a nickname. Having said that some persons have nicknames but there is no general pattern for them. Now to the topic at hand…

You are right that -ĉjo and -njo are the only official suffixes for creating nicknames, and as you probably know, they are supposed to be attached to a shortened version of a name. It gives some leeway for creating a nickname.

For instance (with non exhausting examples)
  • Johannes → Johanĉjo, Jonĉjo aŭ Joĉjo
  • Johanna → Johanjo aŭ Jonjo / Johanja aŭ Jonja
The question what suffixes exist for non-binary people or non-revealed sex, reverts to which non-binary/non-revealed-sex system you prefer. Three years ago I counted at least 11 different proposals which claim to tackle one or more of the related issues.

One of those could be called ip-ismo, where -ip would be the suffix for non-binary persons and -pj its nickname-counterpart.
  • Aleksipo → Alepjo
A competing proposal is j-ismo where a postfix or infix -j would be used to create non-revealed-sex nicknames.
  • Alekso → Alejo (nickname both for a male or female Alex)
  • patro/patrino → pajtro (nickname for a parent)
As with almost all reform proposals in general, none of those I found have not broken through (except ri-ismo to some degree). So you may stick to the original one or become a supporter of one of the proposals. Or create nicknames using patterns outside Esperanto, e.g. William → Billy or Vilhelmo/Viliamo → Billo.

konesperantidoj (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-14 21:53:26

Metsis:You are right that -ĉjo and -njo are the only official suffixes for creating nicknames, and as you probably know, they are supposed to be attached to a shortened version of a name. It gives some leeway for creating a nickname.
None of those reform proposals are necessary, because fundamental esperanto already has the flexibility to express these terms, and they are not needed:
konesperantidoj:just combine radicals "vir'" and "in'" , like any esperanto radical, example: "vir'instru'ist'in'o or "vir'nask'int'in'o".

and intersex can be referred to as vir'vir'in'o

Metsis (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-15 00:14:19

konesperantidoj:just combine radicals "vir'" and "in'" , like any esperanto radical, example: "vir'instru'ist'in'o or "vir'nask'int'in'o".

and intersex can be referred to as vir'vir'in'o
I need to precize. Three years ago I counted 11 somehow reasonable proposals, of which I presented two. They are not mine.

Piling of several vir- and -in nor using them within one word is not of good style.

The trend in Esperantujo has already been during several years to use sex-neutral professional titles, i.e. just estro, instruisto and so on, whatever sex the person might be. Besides the original question was about nicknames.

konesperantidoj (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-15 03:30:10

Metsis:
konesperantidoj:just combine radicals "vir'" and "in'" , like any esperanto radical, example: "vir'instru'ist'in'o or "vir'nask'int'in'o".

and intersex can be referred to as vir'vir'in'o
I need to precize. Three years ago I counted 11 somehow reasonable proposals, of which I presented two. They are not mine.
No reform to esperanto is reasonable. these are started by liberals who want to reform the language supposedly for LGBT, but the problem is: how are those going to seriously help queers, specifically non-english queers, in anyway? It would help better if there was actual input by queers (not just english queers!), and not something drawn up.

Those reforms would just complicate the language to the point of being unusable.

Metsis:Piling of several vir- and -in nor using them within one word is not of good style.
Is "mal'san'ul'ej'o" a word combination of good style to you? if not, then that's too bad. because it is good style in esperanto, just not to you. it is good style and preferred to combine radicals, instead of forming unneccessary radicals.

It is even worse to change a language instead of learning it to completion or seriously trying to find solutions in fundamental esperanto itself.

Metsis:The trend in Esperantujo has already been during several years to use sex-neutral professional titles, i.e. just estro, instruisto and so on, whatever sex the person might be.
This is not the same thing as trying to push reforms to enforce unneccessary respect to LGBT.

IndigoGollum (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-15 04:31:34

konesperantidoj:No reform to esperanto is reasonable. these are started by liberals who want to reform the language supposedly for LGBT, but the problem is: how are those going to seriously help queers, specifically non-english queers, in anyway? It would help better if there was actual input by queers (not just english queers!), and not something drawn up.
My question actually wasn't about non binary people. That's just an example of where this could be useful that's easy to explain in a brief forum post. I ask because I'm translating a video game in which the player can encounter a creature called "Pinky", for its pink color. This creature is an amorphous blob and isn't male or female (hence my use of "it".) I suppose I could have said "non binary people, people of unknown gender, or animals" but every instance I've seen of -ĉjo or -njo in an animal's name has just reflected that animal's sex. I understand why Zamenhof didn't create an official suffix for people of unknown gender or for objects, but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be useful today.

I assumed that the true reason for my question wouldn't matter and that whatever answers I got would apply just as well to what I asked as to what I needed. I thought because of the length of that explanation that I could just omit it and give a similar example. Apparently I was wrong. Next time I'll be more precise.

Metsis:First a remark that I find having official suffixes for nicknames quite alien to me. This is probably based on the facts that in my native language you seldomly address anyone by name, be it the official one or a nickname. Having said that some persons have nicknames but there is no general pattern for them. Now to the topic at hand…
That's interesting. How do Finns typically refer to one another if not by name?

Metsis (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-15 07:38:40

konesperantidoj:No reform to esperanto is reasonable…
Ah, but we no longer speak the same way as Zamenhof and his contemporaries did. So in essence Esperanto has already changed or evolved, however you want to call it.

konesperantidoj:
Metsis:Piling of several vir-and -in nor using them within one word is not of good style.
Is "mal'san'ul'ej'o" a word combination of good style to you? if not, then that's too bad. because it is good style in esperanto, just not to you. it is good style and preferred to combine radicals, instead of forming unneccessary radicals.
I was referring to your vir'instru'ist'in'o and vir'vir'in'o. Malsanulejo is a different thing.

konesperantidoj:
Metsis:The trend in Esperantujo has already been during several years to use sex-neutral professional titles, i.e. just estro, instruistoand so on, whatever sex the person might be.
This is not the same thing as trying to push reforms to enforce unneccessary respect to LGBT.
I was referring to your vir'instru'ist'in'o.

Metsis (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-15 07:52:20

IndigoGollum:My question actually wasn't about non binary people. That's just an example of where this could be useful that's easy to explain in a brief forum post. I ask because I'm translating a video game in which the player can encounter a creature called "Pinky", for its pink color.
Ah, sorry for derailing this discussion.

I remember to having seen the suffix -ulo used in these kinds of cases, so Pinky could be translated to Rozulo (← rozkolora, pink). That suffix can be used both of humans and of creatures, so for instance a human smith could bear a nickanme Forĝulo (← forĝi, to forge (metal)) in that game.

konesperantidoj (Montri la profilon) 2024-januaro-15 17:31:37

Metsis:
konesperantidoj:No reform to esperanto is reasonable…
Ah, but we no longer speak the same way as Zamenhof and his contemporaries did. So in essence Esperanto has already changed or evolved, however you want to call it.
The base rules of esperanto have not (and should not be) changed and there is no reason to do so.

Do not mess up our language, to add petty crap that will cause unnecessary bloat and will not actually achieve anything in the first place.'

Also, you taken out an important section of my quote:

konesperantidoj:No reform to esperanto is reasonable. these are started by liberals who want to reform the language supposedly for LGBT, but the problem is: how are those going to seriously help queers, specifically non-english queers, in anyway? It would help better if there was actual input by queers (not just english queers!), and not something drawn up.
I meant to say "and not something drawn up alone. at the end.

---

Metsis:
konesperantidoj:Is "mal'san'ul'ej'o" a word combination of good style to you? if not, then that's too bad. because it is good style in esperanto, just not to you. it is good style and preferred to combine radicals, instead of forming unneccessary radicals.
I was referring to your vir'instru'ist'in'oand vir'vir'in'o. Malsanulejo is a different thing.
What is wrong with the radical combination vir/vir/in/? is that caused by duplicate radicals? if so, then fin/fin/ is also a used word combination so that is not a problem either.

Metsis:
konesperantidoj:This is not the same thing as trying to push reforms to enforce unneccessary respect to LGBT.
I was referring to your vir'instru'ist'in'o.
You were complaining about esperanto not "respresenting" sexes other than male and female; so i showed you that that is not much of a problem in esperanto; the flexible word combination already allows for many solutons to problems about sex, if they even come up in the first place.

and indeed, the word combination "instru/ist/"' is becoming more sex neutral, so why complain about "forced sex" now?

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