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Pronunciation of "l" and "r"?

od linkmaster03, 18 stycznia 2009

Wpisy: 10

Język: English

linkmaster03 (Pokaż profil) 18 stycznia 2009, 22:35:47

I'm having trouble finding the correct pronunciation for l and r, and I hope someone can help me get it right before it becomes a habit. (I am just beginning)

I find myself pronouncing l from the side of my mouth, if that makes any sense, almost like "ehl". It's also a bit deeper. Is that the correct way, or would it be more "el" as in English?

With the r I find myself tapping the roof of my mouth with my tongue. Sometimes it makes a pause in the word because my tongue gets "stuck". Should I do it like this, roll them, or keep them soft like in English?

Thanks for the help.

Rogir (Pokaż profil) 18 stycznia 2009, 23:50:52

It is important in Esperanto that all letters are pronounced clearly. So your r's should be rolled and your l's should touch the roof of the mouth.

ceigered (Pokaż profil) 19 stycznia 2009, 03:37:40

As long as the 'L' is a proper L (e.g. tongue touching the right spot etc) and not like the 'dark L' (which is like a 'w', e.g. 'fell' would sound like /few/ and not /fel/) then you're in the clear there. For South Australians the 'dark L' can occasionally be a problem because we mostly use the dark L without thinking about it.

In regards to the 'R', roll it but keep it relaxed, as in don't stress or tense up when trying to pronounce it, otherwise it won't sound natural and you'll notice the stuck sound. Another helpful hint* in my opinion is that when you make a 'tr' sound or 'dr' sound, you should start off making the sounds separately with a very short pause in-between (or a schwa), and then trying to close that gap. That way you won't have a kind of 'ch' runoff sound like we have in English when we say 'tram' or 'dream' okulumo.gif

In such a case you might pronounce 'tre' more like 't're', but it sounds more authentic than 'tle' or 'tshle' ridego.gif

If you are still having some trouble, listen to some Japanese people speaking their language, as even though their 'R' is a bit like an 'L' (and in music is sometimes pronounced as one), they still have an interesting way of pronouncing it without jamming their tongue or sounding like they are having trouble.

*This is incase you can't make this sound with a rolling 'R' - if you can you're doing better than me ridego.gif

ceigered (Pokaż profil) 19 stycznia 2009, 13:18:15

黄鸡蛋:
ceigered:If you are still having some trouble, listen to some Japanese people speaking their language, as even though their 'R' is a bit like an 'L' (and in music is sometimes pronounced as one), they still have an interesting way of pronouncing it without jamming their tongue or sounding like they are having trouble.
Note that Japanese only has the sound "r" that is almost the same as "l" in other languages, but doesn't have "l". (For my ear the sound is "l" instead of "r", though) For that reason they can confuse the two sounds in other languages, and I even saw a Japanese referring to "lernu" as "relnu".
Well yes true, but for the most part it sounds close enough to an alveolar tap (one of the more accepted Esperanto 'r's)... lango.gif

However this brings another slightly unrelated question - what is the Chinese 'R' mean to be (in Pinyin)? I've seen it before but never quite understood how it's pronounced

Matthieu (Pokaż profil) 19 stycznia 2009, 17:38:13

In English, at least in some dialects, the letter T or D can be pronounced like a flapped R, in words like “better”. (Seee Flapping on Wikipedia.) This sound is a correct manner to pronounce the Esperanto R.

And the Chinese R is pronounced like a voiced retroflex fricative consonant (like ĵ, but the tip of the tongue is back in the mouth). It must depend on dialects, but that’s how I (and my Chinese teacher) pronounce it.

linkmaster03 (Pokaż profil) 19 stycznia 2009, 18:50:45

Thanks everybody for the help! I'll work on it.

Currently I am flapping my r's as Mutusen said. Should I just add a little roll onto that then?

Frankouche (Pokaż profil) 19 stycznia 2009, 20:32:26

We have soon spoken about "r" on this post : "Rolling R" , rideto.gif

linkmaster03 (Pokaż profil) 20 stycznia 2009, 02:46:51

That's a nice thread, thanks for the link. I can roll my r's but it seems as if I have to use a lot of air to do it. (thus making the r over-emphasized) I will just keep practicing.

I guess I'm lucky that I had a Greek (I think) friend in first grade teach me how to roll my r's. It even got to a point where I was accidentally rolling my r's in speech. Now is when I need that habit. lango.gif

ceigered (Pokaż profil) 20 stycznia 2009, 07:14:16

黄鸡蛋:Another key difference among the dialects is the tone, but it's out of topic here.
Interestingly, one thing I've noticed to be lacking from spoken Esperanto is the lack of tone/pitch - I know that it's not the same as Chinese, but in English we often use tone in a way that is pretty much learnt through extensive use, and the same for German and Dutch and many other languages. However esperanto doesn't seem to have the same use of pitch or tone in speech, which is most likely because it's not really something you can just teach (unless it's like Chinese where tones are used to differentiate words) but anyway the absence makes me a bit sad.

ceigered (Pokaż profil) 20 stycznia 2009, 13:01:00

D. Esperado:hi,
i think you have a point in the fact that the tone isn't used in the way it is in english. but do you not think that's because there are no large gatherings of speakers where the tonal system can evolve? i may be wrong but I think tone/pitch is aquired through habits that people learn from others. and because there are few 'others', it won't develop.
i hope that helps.
I actually completely agree with you lango.gif. Sadly, I think we might have to wait a while before we get that tonal system I so desire ha ha.

Oh well, back to the cryo tube...

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