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foreign words and the accusative case

de mccambjd, 20 de març de 2007

Missatges: 5

Llengua: English

mccambjd (Mostra el perfil) 20 de març de 2007 23.38.02

So, I was replying in the Muziko exchange and wondered what the standard is for non-Esperanto words which find themselves in the accusative case. For example: if I wanted to say "I don't like hip-hop very much" do I say "Mi ne tre sxatus hip-hop-n"? What's the convention for adding -n? Is it always required?

pastorant (Mostra el perfil) 20 de març de 2007 23.48.31

mccambjd:So, I was replying in the Muziko exchange and wondered what the standard is for non-Esperanto words which find themselves in the accusative case. For example: if I wanted to say "I don't like hip-hop very much" do I say "Mi ne tre sxatus hip-hop-n"? What's the convention for adding -n? Is it always required?
I tend to add -o to a foreign word.
I would say for example:
Mi ne ŝatas hiphop-on.
or
Mi ne ŝatas hiphop-an muzikon.

RiotNrrd (Mostra el perfil) 22 de març de 2007 2.22.31

I think of names like that the way I think of peoples names, and I generally don't esperantize names. So I would say "Mi (ne) ŝatas hip-hop." It's true that that makes the sentence ungrammatical, since it requires you assume a S-V-O word order, which Esperanto does not enforce (although it can and does use it). However, the likelihood is that the sentence would be understood anyway*, and, on balance, that's what's really important.

Or, you could get really radical and say "Mi (ne) ŝatas na hip-hop." There's a certain Esperanto subgroup which is trying to propose exactly that kind of formation - "na" giving the ability to denote a word as being in the accusative without tacking on the -n suffix - although it's completely unofficial, some say unnecessary, and quite hotly debated at the moment in some quarters.

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* Unless you really do mean to say that hip-hop does or doesn't like YOU. But unless the context is very odd, that seems like the less likely interpretation.

mccambjd (Mostra el perfil) 22 de març de 2007 3.09.42

RiotNrrd:* Unless you really do mean to say that hip-hop does or doesn't like YOU.
I had nothing to do with Tupac's or Biggie's deaths...

erinja (Mostra el perfil) 22 de març de 2007 14.14.48

You don't have to add the -n to foreign words, though some people do it for the purpose of clarity, in writing.

But if someone's name ends in a vowel, you could add the -n ("Mi sxatas Anna-n") or leave it.

Also, if you think of it this way, there are rarely ambiguities: if I wanted to say "Hip-hop doesn't like me", that would be "Hip-hop ne sxatas min" or "Min ne sxatas Hip-hop"

Really, the only possible ambiguity is when both subject and object are foreign ("Hip-hop ne sxatas punk"), and then you'd use word order to distinguish.

But most music forms have Esperanto names of some sort; Bertilo's list, for example, has hip-hop as "hiphopo"

This is his English-Esperanto glossary of music terms:
http://www.bertilow.com/roko/helpo/angla.html

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