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foreign words and the accusative case

od mccambjd, 20. marec 2007

Sporočila: 5

Jezik: English

mccambjd (Prikaži profil) 20. marec 2007 23:38:02

So, I was replying in the Muziko exchange and wondered what the standard is for non-Esperanto words which find themselves in the accusative case. For example: if I wanted to say "I don't like hip-hop very much" do I say "Mi ne tre sxatus hip-hop-n"? What's the convention for adding -n? Is it always required?

pastorant (Prikaži profil) 20. marec 2007 23:48:31

mccambjd:So, I was replying in the Muziko exchange and wondered what the standard is for non-Esperanto words which find themselves in the accusative case. For example: if I wanted to say "I don't like hip-hop very much" do I say "Mi ne tre sxatus hip-hop-n"? What's the convention for adding -n? Is it always required?
I tend to add -o to a foreign word.
I would say for example:
Mi ne ŝatas hiphop-on.
or
Mi ne ŝatas hiphop-an muzikon.

RiotNrrd (Prikaži profil) 22. marec 2007 02:22:31

I think of names like that the way I think of peoples names, and I generally don't esperantize names. So I would say "Mi (ne) ŝatas hip-hop." It's true that that makes the sentence ungrammatical, since it requires you assume a S-V-O word order, which Esperanto does not enforce (although it can and does use it). However, the likelihood is that the sentence would be understood anyway*, and, on balance, that's what's really important.

Or, you could get really radical and say "Mi (ne) ŝatas na hip-hop." There's a certain Esperanto subgroup which is trying to propose exactly that kind of formation - "na" giving the ability to denote a word as being in the accusative without tacking on the -n suffix - although it's completely unofficial, some say unnecessary, and quite hotly debated at the moment in some quarters.

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* Unless you really do mean to say that hip-hop does or doesn't like YOU. But unless the context is very odd, that seems like the less likely interpretation.

mccambjd (Prikaži profil) 22. marec 2007 03:09:42

RiotNrrd:* Unless you really do mean to say that hip-hop does or doesn't like YOU.
I had nothing to do with Tupac's or Biggie's deaths...

erinja (Prikaži profil) 22. marec 2007 14:14:48

You don't have to add the -n to foreign words, though some people do it for the purpose of clarity, in writing.

But if someone's name ends in a vowel, you could add the -n ("Mi sxatas Anna-n") or leave it.

Also, if you think of it this way, there are rarely ambiguities: if I wanted to say "Hip-hop doesn't like me", that would be "Hip-hop ne sxatas min" or "Min ne sxatas Hip-hop"

Really, the only possible ambiguity is when both subject and object are foreign ("Hip-hop ne sxatas punk"), and then you'd use word order to distinguish.

But most music forms have Esperanto names of some sort; Bertilo's list, for example, has hip-hop as "hiphopo"

This is his English-Esperanto glossary of music terms:
http://www.bertilow.com/roko/helpo/angla.html

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