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The word "Ebl" in Esperanto

de St3a1th, 5 ianuarie 2010

Contribuții/Mesaje: 58

Limbă: English

Miland (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 14:45:22

dimicĥp:
Let's analyze it logically:
Havi eblecon = havi eco esti ebla ~= esti ebla.
Havi eblon = havi ion kio estas ebla.

That's absolutely different senses. If you say 'mi havas eblecon' then you are saying that your are possible (by itself, don't know what that means). If you say 'mi havas eblon' then are saying that you have something that you can do.
..Please don't advocate mistakes.
I don't agree that eblo and ebleco are 'absolutely different'. You are equating eblo with eblaĵo which is only one interpretation. Mi havas eblecon means 'I have a chance' which means 'It may be possible for me'. The meaning of havi eblecon is different when placed after an event, when it means 'is possible'.

Estas ebleco fari tion means 'There is a possibility of that being done', or 'It could be done', which will probably be easy to understand in context. "Ĉu la traktato estos farita ĝis la fino de la semajno?" "Nu, estas ebleco fari tion".

Ebleco is not difficult to understand as usually used. I am not advocating mistakes but a common usage which is well understood. As for idioms, I do not say that Esperanto should adopt them just because they occur in English. Esperanto has its own idioms which become adopted through common usage (e.g. venis en la kapon).

tommjames (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 15:11:02

Miland:The example used in PMEG is in fact a case where ebleco is used logically as an abstract chance, as it should be.
Don't really see how. When you say "I will have the possibility" the essence of this is that something will be possible, for you. You're not saying "I will have the quality of being possible", yet that would clearly be the most logical reading of "mi havos eblecon". I would say that other interpretations are far less logical than this, regardless of whether they may in fact be possible in some abstract kind of way.

Miland:Havas eblecon is much more common a form than than estas ebleco, of which I found only one example in the tekstaro
I'm unsure of the relevance you attach to this search result. The frequency with which people use (or misuse) "ebleco" in this way doesn't affect its logicality. Are you saying "ebleco" would be logical because more people happen to use it? demando.gif

Miland:venis en la kapo
venis en la kapon sal.gif

ceigered (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 15:14:37

dimchxp:Please avoid words like "idiomatic" in sense "it's illogical but i'll accept it because my native language does it that way" when talking about international language. It's not english
I agree with you mostly but I don't agree with this statement. Basically, English has 1 word, "possibility", which functions the same as "eblo". EO has TWO words, "eblo" which functions the same as possibility, and "ebleco" which functions the same as only one of "possibility"s meanings.

Therefore, it's not about idiomatic usage from native languages, it's about using the dictionary incorrectly (e.g. if someone said "российский" instead of "русский" because in their country they just have one word for both of them - both mean Russian, but "русский" is much more specific (или я думаю...) rideto.gif).
tommjames:
Miland:venis en la kapo
venis en la kapon sal.gif
What does "Came in(to) the head" mean?

Miland (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 15:29:58

tommjames:When you say "I will have the possibility" .. You're not saying "I will have the quality of being possible".
The 'quality' here is the chance of something, which is an abstraction. It is meaningful to speak of someone having a chance, even though a chance is not a tangible object.

tommjames:
Miland:Havas eblecon is much more common a form than than estas ebleco..
I'm unsure of the relevance you attach to this search result.
I'm saying that correctness in a language ultimately depends on usage. This enables idioms like havi eblecon to become part of the language - which they have.

Miland (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 15:32:16

ceigered:What does "Came in(to) the head" mean?
It means 'occurred to (someone)' e.g. Venis en mian kapon ke la bruo en tiu restoracio ne plaĉos al ni, 'It occurred to me that we would not like the noise in that restaurant'.

Rogir (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 15:34:56

Miland:
ceigered:What does "Came in(to) the head" mean?
It means 'occurred to (someone)' e.g. Venis en mian kapon, ke la bruo en tiu restoracio ne plaĉos al ni

Miland (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 15:40:27

tommjames:
Rogir:
Dankon, -n has been put in.

dimichxp (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 16:09:55

Miland:Mi havas eblecon means 'I have a chance' which means 'It may be possible for me'.
No, "Mi havas eblecon" (A) means approximately (with semantic stress on uncertainty) "Mi estas ebla". Ĵus venis en mian kapon, ke the root of misunderstanding is that ebl expresses passive ability, not active (for example look at manĝebla - povanta esti montrata). That means that (A) doesn't tell that you have ability to do it, it says that someone has ability to do something with you as an object. I know it sounds weird, that's why you shouldn't say 'Mi havas eblecon' rideto.gif. ridulo.gif

My duspesmila opinio about idioms in esperanto: idioms like "venis en mian kapon" (B) (btw, certe devenas de la rusa frazo) are great, since they are real idioms - they shows some process in abstract way, they may sound absurdish (how can one may come into the head?), but they do they task making a speaking more artistic. If you are going to make "havi eblecon" idiomatic version of "havi eblon", i would like to disappoint you - it
doesn't worth it because:

1. the real sense is quite strange and not understandable (not like (B) which at least has some analogy between "a thought appeared in my head" and "a thought came in my head";
2. it doesn't serve for good - they are sounding very similar.

There is no sense to make "havi eblecon" idiomatic, and no sense to introduce that kind of exceptions into language, it already hurts.

ceigered (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 18:00:48

Miland:
ceigered:What does "Came in(to) the head" mean?
It means 'occurred to (someone)' e.g. Venis en mian kapon ke la bruo en tiu restoracio ne plaĉos al ni, 'It occurred to me that we would not like the noise in that restaurant'.
Cheers mate - Venis en mian kapon ke mi estas pli densa ol brika muro fojfoje! lango.gif
(I think the source of my confusion was me thinking the phrase referred to some form of projectile, e.g. "La kuglo, ĝi venis en mian kapon... ajajajajaj").

But great phrase, in context it makes perfect sense, and it can be brought out of context for comedic situations too! rido.gif

A) "Venis en mian kapon ke tiu ĉi basbaloj estas malmola."
B) "Prava. Venis en mian kapon tiu basbalo. Aaaaaaaaji"

horsto (Arată profil) 7 ianuarie 2010, 18:21:52

dimichxp:
Let's analyze it logically:
Havi eblecon = havi econ esti ebla ~= esti ebla.
Havi eblon = havi ion kio estas ebla.
That's absolutely different senses. If you say 'mi havas eblecon' then you are saying that your are possible (by itself, don't know what that means). If you say 'mi havas eblon' then are saying that you have something that you can do.
I'm not sure if I understood this correctly, I also have problems with ebleco because of my native language.
Let's say some event A is possible. Then A has eblecon, it can be made happen by something or someone or by random. But A doesn't have eblon, it can not do anything by itself. The people have eblon, which means that they can do something to make A happen.
Is this correct?

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