Mesaĝoj: 46
Lingvo: English
Roberto12 (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-24 21:58:46
arĥitekturo, architecture - arkitekturo
eĥo, echo (NO CHANGE)
ĥemio, chemistry - kemio
Ĥinujo/io, China - Ĉinujo/io
ĥoro, choir - koruso
meĥaniko, mechanics - mekaniko
monaĥo, monk (NO CHANGE)
monarĥio, monarch - monarko
As you can see, two of them - echo and monk - have, as far as I can find, no alternative forms. Are were really to be forced to make the Ĥ noise if we want to say one of these words or a derivative therefrom, or do alternatives in fact exist? If yes, what are they? If no, then we should think some up!
Vilinilo (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-24 22:50:34
The alternative forms of eĥo and monaĥo are ekoo and of monako.
But there are some people who don't have any problem with ĥ, I think native speakers of Spanish and German must find it very easy.
arcxjo (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-24 23:56:31
Vilinilo:I think native speakers of Spanish and German must find it very easy.Plus native speakers of Greek, slavic and caucasian languages, Persian, Hungarian, Hindi, Dutch and Afrikaans, Scottish English, Arabic, even Mandarin... Actually, this consonant is fairly common throughout the world. I'd say it's even more popular than some other sounds we can find in Esperanto. It's mainly western europeans who discarded using it some time ago, when the languages were evolving... duh.
I personally prefer using ĥ (beside Ĥinio - it looks awful in my opinion), espacially in the words of Greek origin (like ĥaoso).
Cheers.
RiotNrrd (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-24 23:56:50
The sound itself doesn't bother me at all (it's a common sound in German, which I took in school for a number of years). I think I'd rather Zamenhof would have just used the "x" instead*, or something to that effect. "Xemio", "xoro", "ĉexo"; works for me.
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* Now it would interfere with the x-sistemo, though.
Jafiki91 (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-25 02:57:38
* Now it would interfere with the x-sistemo, though.I personally hate the x system. its much easier to read the letters as they were intended to be preinted. which is why i set up an Esperanto keyboard.
patrik (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-25 04:24:20
But then, I acknowledge their existence, and personally, I like the look of "Ĥ". We should preserve these words, because they give E-o an archaeological flair. 
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-25 05:18:01
R2D2!:Seriously, you say you can't pronounce it, but Spanish speaking people actually use the ĥ sound, and can't pronounce a normal h. What I hate is that the change is actually ocurringJahajaha!
I personally think that H should represent h and hx, and that /h/ and the more guttural /x/ sort of sounds should be allophonic, e.g. h should be /h/ and /x/ and all in between. That, of course, is common in more recent experimental designs of international auxiliary languages, but it's something I don't think would be bad for esperanto (other than doing a Lingua-Franca-Nova and going "goodbye H!" altogether, which seems to be the fate of /h/ in many languages (only to be replaced when the /j/ sound becomes /x/ like in Spanish )) 
IberianWolf (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-25 06:14:53
darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-25 06:34:48
So should English/French speakers do with ĥ. Ĥ is a great sound that's completely NOT worth changing or getting rid of.
Sure, Ĥino was (unfortunately!) completely replaced by Ĉino, so I use the latter too, but with all other ĥ-words, I still use the ĥ-form. It just isn't necessary to change ĥ to k or h, so why do this? It only makes ĥ even harder to pronounce, since you no longer practise it frequently when speaking Esperanto.
I also believe that Meksiko should be *Meĥiko, but as the latter isn't used at all, I stick to Meksiko, otherwise that would be a kind of reform.
BTW, Ĉeĥujo isn't the only country with ĥ that has no alternative form: Liĥtenŝtejno exists.
ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-januaro-25 07:36:41
darkweasel:Esperanto has many sounds that are difficult for somebody in the world. For example, I can't easily distinguish between z and s, or between ĵ and ŝ - so do I change all z/ĵ-words to s/ŝ-words?! No! Because that distinction IS in the language, so I have to get used to it.While I'm not saying we should change the language fullstop, if it were more regular, the jx/sx part would have to be regularised too
Anyway, whenever it comes to saying what letters are "out of place", it always depends on what languages differentiate between each other, for example if 19 of 20 languages have only jx and not gx or only gx and not jx, and only one makes the distinction, then realistically the sound should be allophonic (practically though it doesn't work that way, as we have seen in Esperanto. Ido did.... but ido still has the c and other things like that so that's by no means simplified... another complex story anyway...
Hxino is etymologically out of whack, if we go with the theory that "chin-" comes from Sanskrit činh (cxin) from the Mandarin Qín (Qin dynasty). However to my understanding q came from k so maybe "Hxino" could be explained if you said that "Hxino" is based on "Kino"... off topic though lol.
Hx is interesting in that it doesn't have total support from the Esperanto community, unlike other things. Maybe because it's not enough to cause people to leave the Esperanto community unlike other things like the accusative, so we end up with more general discontent in the community. In any rate, I don't care that much, except for the fact that my voice is guttural enough without having to TRY and make a guttural consonant