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de xBlackWolfx, 2010-septembro-30

Mesaĝoj: 54

Lingvo: English

ceigered (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 09:59:22

Blimey, seems "ol"s sort of ambiguous in its meaning.
On one hand I feel like using "antaŭ ol" simply because others have stated that it is correct and that the Reta Vortaro explains that it's "antaŭ ol" to make it sound more temporal rather than about location, yet on the other hand, it seems natural for all -aŭ words to be ambiguous as to whether they are adjectives, prepositions or conjunctions. (RE The Reta vortaro's definition, it says:
ReVo:Por eviti konfuzon inter la tempa kaj loka sencoj de antaŭ oni povas uzi la pli precizajn formojn iam antaŭ aŭ pli frue ol pri tempo kaj ie antaŭ pri loko, aŭ uzi en la tempa senco antaŭ ol eĉ kun substantivo, supozante neesprimitan verbon: li venis antaŭ ol mi; vi cedos antaŭ ol mi. Sekvate de akuzativo, antaŭ povas havi nur lokan sencon.
Would this mean that in this case, as far as the author has recognised, "antaŭ" can still be used conjunctively but being possibly imprecise in its meaning and therefore dangerous in some circumstances where the time meaning is not clear?)

On attempting to crack what the purpose of "ol"s existance is, is the word meant to be used as a conjunction when two words are meant to be demonstrated on the same scale of sorts? E.g. the scale of intensity, scale of comparison, scale of time, etc?

tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 10:13:15

Reta Vortaro is not saying "antaŭ ol" is for making it temporal rather than about location. It's just advising on a way of making that distinction, should you wish to. "Antaŭ ol" is a means of doing so.

To me it's fairly simple, use "antaŭ" when it's before a concrete thing, and "antaŭ ol" when it's before a subphrase or where a subphrase is implied. This has nothing to do with actions or distinctions with the word's locational meaning, it's simply the difference between a preposition and a conjunction.

xBlackWolfx (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 10:43:30

i never use the reta vortaro, i can never decipher the definitions it gives, and ontop of that it's dictionary appears to be increadly small.

i prefer http://www.dicts.info/2/english-esperanto.php?wo... but i also found sonja's dictionary usefull from time to time. i have also found the lernu dictionary on the side to be very useful. my normal dictionary is very complete, but sonja's dictionary isnt so bad and it actually explains the semantics of the words. my normal dictionary can give you 10 different results for one english word! i have to look up each individual word in the esperanto-english half to figure out exactly what i want, and even then it still isnt clear enough (and sometimes even sonja doesnt help me), for example, i'm having trouble finding the word that describes a shower stall or a changing room (and i mean the little ones you find in walmart, not locker rooms, and speaking of which none of the three have a word for locker apparently, though i guess you could just use ŝlosaŝranko or ŝlosaŝranketo to mean 'locker', but that's a bit too much of a tongue-twister, i can barely even pronounce ŝranko!).

3rdblade (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 11:12:59

xBlackWolfx:for example, i'm having trouble finding the word that describes a shower stall or a changing room (and i mean the little ones you find in walmart, not locker rooms.
How about 'vestŝanĝejo' (or 'vestŝanĝejeto')? Clothes-change-place. I just made it up.

xBlackWolfx (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 11:17:32

3rdblade:
xBlackWolfx:for example, i'm having trouble finding the word that describes a shower stall or a changing room (and i mean the little ones you find in walmart, not locker rooms.
How about 'vestŝanĝejo' (or 'vestŝanĝejeto')? Clothes-change-place. I just made it up.
i was thinking of something similar to that. my dictionary-with-the-name-made-up-of-random-letters lists 'changing room' as 'vestiĝejo', which makes perfect sense. if you wanted to describe one of those little changing rooms then you could just say 'vestiĝejeto'. and for shower stall you could say 'duŝejeto', but that one doesnt sound very appealing to me.

btw, does anyone know a program besides ek! for typing esperanto letters? mine makes keeps changing my english words everytime i write a ch or sh.

tommjames (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 11:20:35

btw, does anyone know a program besides ek! for typing esperanto letters? mine makes keeps changing my english words everytime i write a ch or sh.
The way to fix that would be to remove 'H' from your list of postfiksoj, in the configuration. You don't need to change your program.

xBlackWolfx (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 11:23:59

tommjames:
btw, does anyone know a program besides ek! for typing esperanto letters? mine makes keeps changing my english words everytime i write a ch or sh.
The way to fix that would be to remove 'H' from your list of postfiksoj, in the configuration. You don't need to change your program.
heh, had no idea this thing had an options menu, thanks. now my necessary program is no longer annoying! i can probably even keep it on all the time now.

darkweasel (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 12:28:40

3rdblade:
xBlackWolfx:for example, i'm having trouble finding the word that describes a shower stall or a changing room (and i mean the little ones you find in walmart, not locker rooms.
How about 'vestŝanĝejo' (or 'vestŝanĝejeto')? Clothes-change-place. I just made it up.
If you want to talk about a place for trying out clothes before you buy them, why not vestaĵprovejo?

sudanglo (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 12:33:21

I read somewhere, I think, that Zamenhof use 'antaŭ ol' in the circumstances outlined in the link that Tom gave, because there was a similar structure in Russian - and of course the Esperantists followed Zamenhof's usage.

For some sentence structures antaŭ ol is obligatory and you can't say just antaŭ.

You certainly can't say antaŭ manĝi or antaŭ ni manĝos. You should say antaŭ ol manĝi and antaŭ ol ni manĝos.

However, there may be sentences where a possible confusion could arise between the temporal and spatial meanings of antaŭ, and using antaŭ ol allows you to make clear you mean before in time.

Antaŭ tiu manĝo mi sentis min .. - would this mean confronted with this meal I felt .., or some time before this meal I felt...

Miland (Montri la profilon) 2010-septembro-30 12:35:56

xBlackWolfx:i'm having trouble finding the word that describes a shower stall or a changing room (and i mean the little ones you find in walmart, not locker rooms,..none a word for locker..
For the last one, vestŝranko or even simply ŝranko should do fine. A room for trying on clothes is usually a cubicle. If it is only a booth or stall divided from others by partitions then budo may be suitable. If it has walls and a door so that it is a small room, then ĉambreto or kamero may be suitable.
A shower stall could be duŝejo or duŝbudo.
Following the ideas of darkweasel and 3rdblade, to express the meaning more fully, vestejo or vestprovejo may be fine. It depends on what part of the meaning you want in the foreground, bearing in mind that the context will often do part of the work for you.

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